Life In 19x19

Hello all,

I've hit a pretty big life milestone and am thinking of gifting myself a nice set. I had some questions regarding things, and am hoping you guys can help in the decision making! So here are a plethora of questions:

1) Stones: Definitely want to get me some slate and shell. Mr. Kuroki's premium stones are a bit too pricey, but his Blue Label 30/32 (8.0/8.8 mm) stones are right about what I'm looking for (20k/25k yen). I see however, that Kiseido is selling Jitsuyo 8.4 mm stones for 260. Does anyone know how these stones compare/look? And just to get it right, the slate is oiled every now and then and the shell is rinsed with water and gentle detergent, if that? How often do they need upkeep?

2) Board: I really like this Katsura board: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/835 Katsura, as I understand, is an "appropriate" wood for the level of stones I'm looking at, yes? And also, seeing as Kurokigoishiten seems to be relatively undersupplied, are there any other places (besides eBay) where I might find quality products?

Also in terms of board care I have two questions. First, I live in a very dry area. Will this really adversely affect the wood as it acclimates? And how does board care work, i.e. wax or oil and how often?

3) Looking at the premade sets, how does this one look: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/496
It's right on the upper limit of my budget and seems very solid.

3) Could I ask to, say, substitute out say the boards? Is that a thing?

So I guess it was misleading to label the first two as 1 and 2 considering its more like 20 But yeah, I'm trying to collect as much info as I can so any and all help is appreciated! Thanks.

Cynosure wrote: 1) Stones: Definitely want to get me some slate and shell. Mr. Kuroki's premium stones are a bit too pricey, but his Blue Label 30/32 (8.0/8.8 mm) stones are right about what I'm looking for (20k/25k yen). I see however, that Kiseido is selling Jitsuyo 8.4 mm stones for 260. Does anyone know how these stones compare/look? And just to get it right, the slate is oiled every now and then and the shell is rinsed with water and gentle detergent, if that? How often do they need upkeep?

Can't advise you there. Erythen at this board seems to be well regarded concerning knowledge about S&S stones, so I'd follow the instructions he has posted here, on his blog, and in his eBay auctions.

2) Board: I really like this Katsura board: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/835 Katsura, as I understand, is an "appropriate" wood for the level of stones I'm looking at, yes? And also, seeing as Kurokigoishiten seems to be relatively undersupplied, are there any other places (besides eBay) where I might find quality products?

I wonder why the Katsura board is cheaper than the New Kaya one. It does have nice patterns on top, but they could be distracting. That's a matter of taste, though.

Also in terms of board care I have two questions. First, I live in a very dry area. Will this really adversely affect the wood as it acclimates? And how does board care work, i.e. wax or oil and how often?

Can't advise you there. I'll have to go looking for some information myself. I can only say that I have never ever 'maintained' my DGT computer chess board and pieces; I just keep them in the same room, which has about the same temperature and humidity throughout the year, give or take a few degrees or percent. It has been fine for the 8 years I have it.

3) Looking at the premade sets, how does this one look: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/496
It's right on the upper limit of my budget and seems very solid.

3) Could I ask to, say, substitute out say the boards? Is that a thing?

It seems fine. I have been considering such a set myself. I did ask to have the bowls swapped for different ones, more than two weeks ago. I could just buy the board, the stones and the bowls separately, but I'm obviously after the 10.000 + 3.000 yen discount on the stones and board that buying in a set provides. The bowls I'd like to get, receive a discount of about 4.000 yen when in a set (but they aren't currently in any set.) So, I (politely) asked if I could get this discount on a set I'd create myself.

I haven't received any answer as of yet. I've asked my question over two weeks ago.

To be honest, I'm now thinking at just getting a set of thicker Jitsuyo stones, a Shin Kaya board, and some nice bowls somewhere in Europe. Everything is more expensive here, but when comparing...

Europe:
Size 30-32 Jitsuyo stones: €300 average
5-6 cm Shin Kaya board: €160 average
Bowls: €100 (they start at like €25, up to €400 or so)

That's around €560, and some shipment from different stores. If you shop around, and/or choose different products such as size 30 stones (or even thinner), 3-4 cm Shin Kaya board, and cheaper bowls, it could be €100 to €150 cheaper.

Mr. Kuroki, set prices for a more expensive set:
Blossom Grade Size 32 stones: 40.000
Shin Kaya 6cm board: 13.000
Satin Bowls: 11.000
Shipment: 17.000

81.000 yen, or €689
Clearance and duty: around €45
Tax: €145 + €10

Total: €889

Even a less expensive set, comparable to what I'd buy from Europe, turns out quite expensive. (No discounts, as this isn't a pre-made set):

Blue label size 32 stones: 25.000
Chestnut bowls: 6.800
Shin Kaya 3cm board: 6.000
Shipment: 17.000

54.800 yen, or €466
Clearance and Duty: €45
Tax: €107

Total €573

Note that this price is very comparable to the price in Europe, due to the high shipment costs and tax, but you the cheapest bowls around, and a board half as thick.

In my case, my reason for considering Mr. Kuroki is that I like his cherry and satin bowls a lot. At 11000-15000 yen, or 115-150 euro, including tax, they are *cheap* compared to the €250 price they cost over here. If I have a chance, I'd like to get a set of stones a grade better than Jitsuyo, but Moon grade is generally not sold over here. When including taxes, Mr. Kuroki's Blossom grade is at the top of what I would be willing to pay (around €420), but only when including the 10K yen discount.

In short, you can actually get better material for the same price, when buying directly in Europe. Kurokigoishiten is worth it if you want to get stuff you can't get over here.

Cynosure wrote:Hello all,

I've hit a pretty big life milestone and am thinking of gifting myself a nice set. I had some questions regarding things, and am hoping you guys can help in the decision making! So here are a plethora of questions:

1) Stones: Definitely want to get me some slate and shell. Mr. Kuroki's premium stones are a bit too pricey, but his Blue Label 30/32 (8.0/8.8 mm) stones are right about what I'm looking for (20k/25k yen). I see however, that Kiseido is selling Jitsuyo 8.4 mm stones for 260. Does anyone know how these stones compare/look? And just to get it right, the slate is oiled every now and then and the shell is rinsed with water and gentle detergent, if that? How often do they need upkeep?

In my view, Kuroki stones are going to be more expensive from other stones. You are paying a premium because they are made by him, laser marked and numbered. When I read the description and received sample Blue Label stones, I felt uneasy about them. In the description, he says that they are scratched or otherwise slightly off-spec from the regular stones. I had to look carefully at each stone, but I could always find a flaw in the stone, though very very small and subtle. You won't notice unless you looked for it. This made me decide not to buy from him, though. I went with Tsuki grade larger stones from another vendor for slightly more cost than the blue label. This is of course a personal taste and it would be best to do as much research and get as many opinions as you can.

Cynosure wrote:2) Board: I really like this Katsura board: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/835 Katsura, as I understand, is an "appropriate" wood for the level of stones I'm looking at, yes? And also, seeing as Kurokigoishiten seems to be relatively undersupplied, are there any other places (besides eBay) where I might find quality products?

I read that Katsura and Agathis are similar and best used with glass stones because the wood is very hard. There are no rules of course. Shin-kaya is supposed to resemble the most desired wood, kaya, but is just slightly different and more readily available. So, it is like getting "fake" kaya.

Cynosure wrote:Also in terms of board care I have two questions. First, I live in a very dry area. Will this really adversely affect the wood as it acclimates? And how does board care work, i.e. wax or oil and how often?

I don't think a dry climate will have a major effect, but changing climate will be a bigger problem. Going from wet to dry seasons and back will be much worse and you will have to minimize moisture in that case. Others may have better information on this than I.

Cynosure wrote:3) Looking at the premade sets, how does this one look: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/496
It's right on the upper limit of my budget and seems very solid.

3) Could I ask to, say, substitute out say the boards? Is that a thing?

The set is a nice set. I personally, think it is better to go with the blossom stones than with the blue label if you buy from Kuroki. In terms of substitutions, I have no idea. I decided to buy mine in pieces from different vendors.

Go_Japan wrote: In my view, Kuroki stones are going to be more expensive from other stones. You are paying a premium because they are made by him, laser marked and numbered. When I read the description and received sample Blue Label stones, I felt uneasy about them. In the description, he says that they are scratched or otherwise slightly off-spec from the regular stones. I had to look carefully at each stone, but I could always find a flaw in the stone, though very very small and subtle. You won't notice unless you looked for it. This made me decide not to buy from him, though. I went with Tsuki grade larger stones from another vendor for slightly more cost than the blue label. This is of course a personal taste and it would be best to do as much research and get as many opinions as you can.

Previously, Mr. Kuroki had Snow, Moon and Flower grade stones. Flower grade was also called 'Standard grade.'
Now he has Snow, Blossom, and Blue Label stones.

Blossom is a mix of Moon and Flower grade stones. He states that this "successfully raised the quality of Flower grade[/url]. As he stopped selling both Moon and Flower grade stones, it could also be explained as successfully lowering the quality of Moon grade...

I was assuming that Blue Label stones were just renamed Jitsuyo, but now you state that the have flaws. Do 'true' Jitsuyo stones have flaws as well, or is it just the number and type of grain that differentiates the grades?

I read that Katsura and Agathis are similar and best used with glass stones because the wood is very hard. There are no rules of course. Shin-kaya is supposed to resemble the most desired wood, kaya, but is just slightly different and more readily available. So, it is like getting "fake" kaya.

Kaya trees need a few hundred years to grow large enough, so it's logical they're almost all gone, so other wood needs to be used.

In the chess world, there are are bazillion types of boards, from cardboard to hardwood. People wanting a nice board mostly go for some sort of color or grain looks. Same with the pieces. There is no 'best set' like getting a 2.1 cm thick mahogany board with maple and ebony pieces of shape X.

You have very inexpensive sets made from foldable cardboard and plastic pieces, and expensive tournament size hardwood boards with matching pieces, but if you spend €250 or so, you'll have about the best you can get without getting into the exotic.

To be honest, I wonder how/why Go equipment prices extend into the stratosphere; and why there are set 'best' materials regarding the wood and the stones.

The set is a nice set. I personally, think it is better to go with the blossom stones than with the blue label if you buy from Kuroki. In terms of substitutions, I have no idea. I decided to buy mine in pieces from different vendors.

Noting that you state that the blue label stones may have flaws, and that taking into account that getting the discount on the blossom grade stones is annihilated by shipping and taxes, I'm also considering to purchase my new set at different vendors throughout Europe.

On Kuroki's website here: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/category/15
It says specifically, "Quality: Quasi-Snow/Flower Grade (Shape, color and scratch etc.)
BLUE LABEL stones are the perfect selection for a gift to beginners. They are also good to use at Go tournaments and Go parlors. We hope that more entry-level and recreational players will have a chance to play with this real clamshell stones. Their quality is nearly equal to that of our two highest grades."

The issues I mention are hardly noticeable. Most of the time, I could feel it before I could see it. So, rubbing my figernail along the edge of the stone reveals a clear defect, not quite rounded along the outside. Then, I could look at it and see it. I also noticed a scratch on the face of one of the stones, but it is easier felt with your nail than it is to see it. So, it really may not be an issue for most people. I was considering them as well, but felt I could get more uniform grain stones at a similar price, since I am in Japan.

In terms of wood, it is also true in the go world I think. It is just that there is an esthetic. You can get very cheap boards, plastic, magnetic, cloth, etc. You can even make your own, which is actually how I started playing 9x9 in my house. I just made one out of paper downloaded online and printed on my computer. Edit: I should mention that I have a set of plastic stones and a board from agathis I bought at the local department store in Japan for about 3000 yen. I enjoyed it functionally for a while, but it didn't make me happy. I am going to donate it somewhere, I think, maybe my kid's school. I think since go is not as popular in the West, these mass-produced sets are harder to come by. There just isn't enough demand to make it worth producing them and shipping them or manufacturing them locally. Actually, I sometimes see a really cheap travel set in convenience stores in Japan, next to shogi and othello for people traveling and looking to play.

It is not like there are no expensive chess sets http://www.richestlifestyle.com/most-ex ... the-world/. It is all about aesthetics, personal preferences, and budget. I purchased nice pieces because I hardly purchase anything for myself and I want something nice to play with. I am going to take the best care of my materials as possible, but I also don't think they will necessarily last forever. I bought my equipment to use, not to show off. I want to use a nice set though, because I like it. For me, there is a bit of zen in the game, and I want to feel joy when I pull out my go set and play or review a pro game.

Edit: Here are some cheap sets you can get in Japan, with plastic stones and cloth board, etc. starting at about 30 USD. http://www.miwagobanten.com/SHOP/1651/1800/list.html

You should look at shogi set prices then - they eclipse Go equipment on the high end, in my opinion.

Thank you everone for taking the time to respond! It was really helpful.

Babelardus wrote:
Kaya trees need a few hundred years to grow large enough, so it's logical they're almost all gone, so other wood needs to be used.

And I expect "tradition" plays a large role here.

As kaya began becoming less and less available the other less desirable but still usable LOCAL (local to where go played) woods (and now their close relatives) were discovered and used.

What we don't know (and I suspect not) is whether the Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. board makers have made any systematic investigation of "woods of the world" to find out if there might not be additional alternatives. There would not be a great deal of incentive for them to do so as initially boards made of some "novel" wood would not sell for a high enough price << their labor cost of making the board would be as high >>

I think that is going to be up to somebody trying to make boards here. Start by examining a sample of kaya to determine its mechanical properties and seek out woods that might be similar (hardness, elasticity, etc.), especially among the ones that could be available in very large sizes.

Mike Novack wrote: As kaya began becoming less and less available the other less desirable but still usable LOCAL (local to where go played) woods (and now their close relatives) were discovered and used.

What we don't know (and I suspect not) is whether the Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. board makers have made any systematic investigation of "woods of the world" to find out if there might not be additional alternatives. There would not be a great deal of incentive...

See this interview with Mr. Kuroki again

Question: Q. In your opinion, how many more years will real kaya wood remain a viable option for making floor gobans as there is difficulty in renewing a resource which needs hundreds of years to grow to the right size.

Mr. Kuroki: Japan-grown Kaya wood is no longer available as a material for high quality Go board. (...) I think that Kaya wood will be in stock just for another 15 years, taking our stock, imported Kaya from China, and only a bit of log to be cutting down in the future into consideration.

So in 15 years, there won't be any Kaya boards anymore, according to Mr. Kuroki. Despite that:

Question: Q. Do you ever try to find new varieties of materials and woods that might exceed kaya in quality?

Mr. Kuroki: 150-year-old Hyuga Kaya Go boards are still in use today, all the more they are more beautiful and magnificent than new board. I believe that Kaya board is the best one since even old Kaya boards can be totally revitalized just by shaving the surface, which will produce nice color tone and texture again. I think Kaya is the King of Go board materials. I will not search for any alternative wood.

Oh, wow. 150 year old boards are the best. "Everything was better back then"-syndrome. Even though he himself says that there will be no possibility to make Kaya boards in another 15 years, he's not going to look for an alternative. I think that is very short-sighted and being stuck in tradition.

Same with clamshell stones. At some point, every type of clam will be protected, and there will be no more new clamshell stones. Prices in most stores are already through the roof for everything above 8.0 or 8.4mm, except for the ones that have some new old stock left. If Mr. Kuroki is not searching for an alternative to Kaya, he'll not be searching to an alternative to shell and slate either.

You know? To some extent, this kind of stuck-in-the-past by traditionalists makes me want to rebel, to not be part of that tradition. It makes me want to get a good 3cm shin kaya (spruce) board, some size 32 or 34 glass stones, and a set of ash bowls. I'll be done for around €200 or so, and my Go won't be any worse because of it.

The more and more I read about the traditional materials, I get the feeling that wanting them is just status mongering, and the more I am getting that feeling, the less I want them. If there's *ONE* thing I don't care about, it's status through the stuff I acquire. It just has to be good (no cardboard and plastic if I can help it), but it doesn't have to €1000 or more before I'm happy.

I think that is going to be up to somebody trying to make boards here. Start by examining a sample of kaya to determine its mechanical properties and seek out woods that might be similar (hardness, elasticity, etc.), especially among the ones that could be available in very large sizes.

It would be a good thing. I now have a simple 1,5cm beech board with size 31 glass stones and plastic containers. It is a serviceable set, but the one thing I dislike is the loud thwack the stones make when placed on the board. Even if you place them carefully, it's a sharp and hard sound, because the wood is too hard. It's the main reason why I'm looking at something different.

And, as said, the more and more I'm reading, the less and less I'm attracted by the traditional materials... *If* it's going to be shell and slate stones, they'll be size 32 Jitsuyo on a 6cm shin kaya board, otherwise they'll be size 32 or 34 on a 3 to 6cm board, depending on the price.

Well yeah, beech would be too hard. But there are a LOT of far softer "hardwoods" some of which could be available in large diameter trees.

OK, making a board (especially a floor board) takes a skilled craft person. But maybe easier just to test some woods for the right hardness and sound. Has anybody tried the some of the softer, white hardwoods like "bass" or "tulip" or "poplar".

As for Mr.Kuroki's apparent lack of concern, perhaps he sees HIS family wouldn't be carrying on go board making in any case. If I came from a long line of go board makers but my kids had become doctors, lawyers, etc. at my age I might not worry about 15 years from now either. Could be that kind of situation.