Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:25 pm**

I know I had a 9 stone handicap, but I feel really proud of my performance in this game. Call it beginners pride, if you wish. I never would've imagined having a chance against a 10K. Not even with a handicap. Anyway, any comments?

Posted: **Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:59 pm**

I don't mean to rain on your post win rush. It's just easier to spot off moves than good moves

If you won then you played better than your opponent.

Black 4: This is not a usual move, though in a 9 stone handicap game in the DDKs, you can't go too far wrong if you stick to the third and forth lines. The usual response would be to take the 3-3 point at R17.

Black 6: This, on the other hand, is flat out not good. If you were thinking you could torture the white group by taking away its base and forcing it into the center you get an A for strategy but a D for tactics. It just won't work. White is very alive. If you weren't thinking that and you goal was to protect side territory you get a D for strategy as well. This is an end game move. Worth quite a lot of points, but never enough to warrant being made in the first hundred moves or so of the game. The exception, as I mentioned before, is when the life and death of a group is at stake. But that is not the case here. Big points before end game points. End game points are on the second line. Big points are on the third and forth lines. Unless you're killing eyes, then big points can be anywehre, second or even first line included.

Where could you play instead? Pretty much anywhere on the board. I would play something like F3 and start enclosing another part of the board. Any move on the third or forth lines would probably work just fine. It's really hard to screw up terminally in the beginning of a 9 stone handicap game if you stick to the third and forth lines.

Black 14: This is too small. You should just leave it. If white wants to take it he starts a ko over less than a point. You don't need that stone to secure life for any of your groups. It doesn't threaten white if you connect. It's just a small end game move.

Also, you're forced into what's called a "dango" or "dumpling" shape. It means your stones aren't working efficiently. See this page. An understanding of shape on this level might be a bit premature at your level, though, so if you don't understand this concept don't sweat it too much. Just something to keep in mind as a topic to revisit in the future.

Black 20: A bit unusual. There is a joseki line that starts like this, but chances are neither you nor your opponent knows it (I certainly didn't know it). In a high handicap game as black don't try to make things complicated. That's white's job.

Black 28 and 32: Empty triangles are usually bad. This is such a case. I think atari'ing at 26 was a mistake. Generally only atari if you either really want a stone there or if you can start a ladder or net and capture. I don't think either is the case here, so the atari was probably a mistake (it feels good because it's forcing, but you just make white stronger!)

But having made the atari, 28 is bad. You're making an empty triangle AND you're playing as if you're afraid for your S11 stones, but those stones are safe. If you couldn't read that your S11 stones can connect no matter what white does (fairly sure that's true) something like S13 would be better, since it makes a nice connection in a more efficient way.

As for what I would play, maybe play P10 (protect the cutting point), and leave white totally surrounded by black. Extending with P12 would be my other choice.

Likewise for 32, jump out either to N11, or if you're afraid of the cut, N10.

Also worth mentioning, with this sequence you start a classic family feud/squeezing out the toothpaste. See this article. Basically you help white attack your top stones. You end up managing two groups at once, which means white has gained an advantage unnecessarily.

Black 86: Believe it or not I think this result is good for black considering how much white "won" the battle tactically. My guess is you felt out played. And you were. But white was after crap to begin with, so you should not be afraid to give it to him. You got a solid wall facing the bottom side. You should be able to gain territory or moyo with this. White got only 15 points in the corner. My guess is that you sort of stumbled onto this sequence. But if you can see this as a good result for black you might try this sort of thing in the future. Give white everything he wants, and yet end up in a superior position. Sort of like judo's "use your opponent's attack's momentum against him". Generally speaking if you can build a wall in sente facing a vast empty region you got more out of the exchange than your opponent.

Black 88: Small again. If your goal is to kill this doesn't do anything. It forces white to connect what was already connected basically. S15 would be better, since it prevents an eye from being made. If your goal is territory, this is worth 10 points if white ignores. Sente is usually considered to be worth 15 points. So in all likelihood white should be able to ignore you and make a move elsewhere and gain profit.

As to the corner, I think white is alive with a tripod group (albeit with more stones). But it's definitely a fuzzy area that either side could mess up in a game at this level. By going for the kill you lose some ko threats, so maybe a bit premature, (bigger points on the board elsewhere assuming you can't kill). But at least you attack from a position of strength and keep sente (I'm counting black 100 as a tenuki away from the corner fight). But again, tactically there are better ways to go about this.

Black 100: Small again. Worth 6+ points. Bigger moves elsewhere on the board. Unless your goal was to rob the white group of an eye. In which case you were thinking good strategically and just making mistakes tactically, since T12 can never be more than a false eye.

Black 170: A family feud again. You're forcing white to strengthen himself towards your weak corner stone. You end up with two weak groups to manage and white gets more than he should.

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:37 am**

one small note: B60 should be at T11 to keep white separated

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:43 am**

Numsgil wrote:Black 100: Small again. Worth 6+ points.

Is it really? I thought the white group was already dead as a whole. (In this match it got life, but that's another story)

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:00 am**

tj86430 wrote:
Numsgil wrote:Black 100: Small again. Worth 6+ points.

Is it really? I thought the white group was already dead as a whole. (In this match it got life, but that's another story)

Debatable, but certainly, Black 100 should be at N8.

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:22 am**

Numsgil wrote:I don't mean to rain on your post win rush. It's just easier to spot off moves than good moves If you won then you played better than your opponent.

Black 4: This is not a usual move, though in a 9 stone handicap game in the DDKs, you can't go too far wrong if you stick to the third and forth lines. The usual response would be to take the 3-3 point at R17.

Black 6: This, on the other hand, is flat out not good. If you were thinking you could torture the white group by taking away its base and forcing it into the center you get an A for strategy but a D for tactics. It just won't work. White is very alive. If you weren't thinking that and you goal was to protect side territory you get a D for strategy as well. This is an end game move. Worth quite a lot of points, but never enough to warrant being made in the first hundred moves or so of the game. The exception, as I mentioned before, is when the life and death of a group is at stake. But that is not the case here. Big points before end game points. End game points are on the second line. Big points are on the third and forth lines. Unless you're killing eyes, then big points can be anywehre, second or even first line included.

Where could you play instead? Pretty much anywhere on the board. I would play something like F3 and start enclosing another part of the board. Any move on the third or forth lines would probably work just fine. It's really hard to screw up terminally in the beginning of a 9 stone handicap game if you stick to the third and forth lines.

Black 14: This is too small. You should just leave it. If white wants to take it he starts a ko over less than a point. You don't need that stone to secure life for any of your groups. It doesn't threaten white if you connect. It's just a small end game move.

Also, you're forced into what's called a "dango" or "dumpling" shape. It means your stones aren't working efficiently. See this page. An understanding of shape on this level might be a bit premature at your level, though, so if you don't understand this concept don't sweat it too much. Just something to keep in mind as a topic to revisit in the future.

Black 20: A bit unusual. There is a joseki line that starts like this, but chances are neither you nor your opponent knows it (I certainly didn't know it). In a high handicap game as black don't try to make things complicated. That's white's job.

Black 28 and 32: Empty triangles are usually bad. This is such a case. I think atari'ing at 26 was a mistake. Generally only atari if you either really want a stone there or if you can start a ladder or net and capture. I don't think either is the case here, so the atari was probably a mistake (it feels good because it's forcing, but you just make white stronger!)

But having made the atari, 28 is bad. You're making an empty triangle AND you're playing as if you're afraid for your S11 stones, but those stones are safe. If you couldn't read that your S11 stones can connect no matter what white does (fairly sure that's true) something like S13 would be better, since it makes a nice connection in a more efficient way.

As for what I would play, maybe play P10 (protect the cutting point), and leave white totally surrounded by black. Extending with P12 would be my other choice.

Likewise for 32, jump out either to N11, or if you're afraid of the cut, N10.

Also worth mentioning, with this sequence you start a classic family feud/squeezing out the toothpaste. See this article. Basically you help white attack your top stones. You end up managing two groups at once, which means white has gained an advantage unnecessarily.

Black 86: Believe it or not I think this result is good for black considering how much white "won" the battle tactically. My guess is you felt out played. And you were. But white was after crap to begin with, so you should not be afraid to give it to him. You got a solid wall facing the bottom side. You should be able to gain territory or moyo with this. White got only 15 points in the corner. My guess is that you sort of stumbled onto this sequence. But if you can see this as a good result for black you might try this sort of thing in the future. Give white everything he wants, and yet end up in a superior position. Sort of like judo's "use your opponent's attack's momentum against him". Generally speaking if you can build a wall in sente facing a vast empty region you got more out of the exchange than your opponent.

Black 88: Small again. If your goal is to kill this doesn't do anything. It forces white to connect what was already connected basically. S15 would be better, since it prevents an eye from being made. If your goal is territory, this is worth 10 points if white ignores. Sente is usually considered to be worth 15 points. So in all likelihood white should be able to ignore you and make a move elsewhere and gain profit.

As to the corner, I think white is alive with a tripod group (albeit with more stones). But it's definitely a fuzzy area that either side could mess up in a game at this level. By going for the kill you lose some ko threats, so maybe a bit premature, (bigger points on the board elsewhere assuming you can't kill). But at least you attack from a position of strength and keep sente (I'm counting black 100 as a tenuki away from the corner fight). But again, tactically there are better ways to go about this.

Black 100: Small again. Worth 6+ points. Bigger moves elsewhere on the board. Unless your goal was to rob the white group of an eye. In which case you were thinking good strategically and just making mistakes tactically, since T12 can never be more than a false eye.

Black 170: A family feud again. You're forcing white to strengthen himself towards your weak corner stone. You end up with two weak groups to manage and white gets more than he should.

Thanks. Looking back at my game as I read this really helped. It made me see a few moves I could have made and put myself in a much better situation, and the comments helped a lot. Thanks!

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:23 am**

tj86430 wrote:one small note: B60 should be at T11 to keep white separated

Well noted, thank you.

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:25 am**

Numsgil wrote:Black 4: This is not a usual move, though in a 9 stone handicap game in the DDKs, you can't go too far wrong if you stick to the third and forth lines. The usual response would be to take the 3-3 point at R17.

Actually, I thought your review was detailed and very helpful, and you clearly put a lot of time into it, so don't take this as a criticism, but 4 is quite usual, and has a wonderful followup for a handicap game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 8 4 W . . . | $$ . . 1 7 O 3 . 2 . . | $$ X . . 6 5 . X . . . | $$ . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $% . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is often useful if :b9:

captures

in a ladder. Here the outside thickness is so incredibly useful that the result is great for Black. with the top hoshi stone, :b9:

is probably not necessary (though it does remove a lot of aji, and make a working ladder in two different directions), and Black could even take tenuki to take some of the huge points that are left, like an enclosure in one of the remaining 3 corners.

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:28 pm**

tj86430 wrote:
Numsgil wrote:Black 100: Small again. Worth 6+ points.

Is it really? I thought the white group was already dead as a whole. (In this match it got life, but that's another story)

Well there's what should be, based on optimal play, and what might happen, based on either player. If I were taking a 9 stone handicap I would be very paranoid about that side white group. I might decide around move 100 to do something about it, to ensure that it stays very very dead. But black's choice wasn't very good if that was his goal. And if the goal was just to grab some points, which is what I suspect, it wasn't a very good move because it was too small.

Posted: **Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:31 pm**

topazg wrote:
Numsgil wrote:Black 4: This is not a usual move, though in a 9 stone handicap game in the DDKs, you can't go too far wrong if you stick to the third and forth lines. The usual response would be to take the 3-3 point at R17.

Actually, I thought your review was detailed and very helpful, and you clearly put a lot of time into it, so don't take this as a criticism, but 4 is quite usual, and has a wonderful followup for a handicap game:

$$B
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 4 W . . . |
$$ . . 1 7 O 3 . 2 . . |
$$ X . . 6 5 . X . . . |
$$ . . . 9 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$% . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 8 4 W . . . | $$ . . 1 7 O 3 . 2 . . | $$ X . . 6 5 . X . . . | $$ . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $% . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is often useful if captures in a ladder. Here the outside thickness is so incredibly useful that the result is great for Black. with the top hoshi stone, is probably not necessary (though it does remove a lot of aji, and make a working ladder in two different directions), and Black could even take tenuki to take some of the huge points that are left, like an enclosure in one of the remaining 3 corners.

Ah good to know. I'd never seen it before in my games (or if I had, I probably snorted and thought *overplay*

).

Life In 19x19

hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

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Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)

Re: hailthorn(18K)(me) v. Yuuzo(10K)