Life In 19x19

Recently one of my opponents in an online game found a wonderful endgame tesuji and won the game I was ahead. My first reaction was getting angry against myself because I failed to see that tesuji, which is a normal reaction I believe.

The level I want to reach is the point where my first feeling in such situations will be appreciation of the move instead of the anger.

The opposite with stupid mistakes, overlooking an atari etc. Feeling the same way (probably anger) with the opponents simple mistakes as with my own simple mistakes. Just because they spoil the game, even if the opponents mistakes let you win.

I think then I will have learned something about life from go. Seeing the big picture, being conscious enough not to forget that this is just a game to enjoy and freeing yourself from the obsession of winning.

What do you guys think about that? Is it bullsh.. or do you feel the same way? Can one reach such a level of wisdom without losing the enthusiasm towards the game?

Well, too philosophical.

Anger is part of life, after you learnt to appreciate the move, you'll learn to appreciate your anger itself.

I think you need a detachment from the result to not get angry. I would probably be frustrated if it was a tesuji I expected to see because I consider it normal, and pleased if it was one I hadn't seen before.

I just played a very embarrassing game last night which I lost due to a bunch of groups being dead. Funny thing was, he had a group that was in the middle that I thought I'd killed ages ago that meant all my groups were alive, and he'd rescued it in a snapback which I'd forgotten about. So we both played about 150 moves (it was an early event!) wondering what on earth the other player was doing

At the end, c'est la vie, next game time

entropi wrote:... and freeing yourself from the obsession of winning.

Don't you like to win a game? Doesn't it feel good to win a game? Then why call it obsession? I am starting to get angry about this whole 'rank obsession' and 'winning obsession' talk.

If you overlook a tesuji and you feel angry, isn't that just natural? Why would you want to change your feeling? I doubt you can. This anger can be turned into something positive because it helps you to memorize the tesuji that you overlooked. And indeed this game that made you angry is more valuable than a game that you won and from which you gained nothing but the joy of winning.

SpongeBob wrote:

entropi wrote:... and freeing yourself from the obsession of winning.

Don't you like to win a game? Doesn't it feel good to win a game? Then why call it obsession? I am starting to get angry about this whole 'rank obsession' and 'winning obsession' talk.

If you overlook a tesuji and you feel angry, isn't that just natural? Why would you want to change your feeling? I doubt you can.

I was expecting such an answer
Of course I like to win and there is no problem with that, as long as losing doesn't make me sad. But dialectically thinking, if you care about the results, the coin always has two sides.

For example I like to solve puzzles, let's say sudoku. But I never get angry if I cannot solve one. Simply because I enjoy the act of solving sudoku and not the state of having solved it. If I cannot solve, so what I enjoyed trying, everybody is happy.

The reason it is different with Go is merely personal ego, in my opinion. In long term, I think it reduces the joy you get from the game. Of course it is something natural but there is no rule that you cannot combat natural things

SpongeBob wrote:This anger can be turned into something positive because it helps you to memorize the tesuji that you overlooked. And indeed this game that made you angry is more valuable than a game that you won and from which you gained nothing but the joy of winning.

The joy should come from playing not from winning. It is true that emotions can help you learn better but why does it have to be a negative emotion? You can also appreciate the new tesuji with positive emotions.

While learning mathematics (given that you are enthusiasted about it), you don't get angry when the teacher shows you something new but you learn it from enthusiasm and appreciation how somebody could come up with such a brilliant idea. Why not doing the same thing with that hypothetical tesuji in question?

Helel wrote:

entropi wrote:The opposite with stupid mistakes, overlooking an atari etc. Feeling the same way (probably anger) with the opponents simple mistakes as with my own simple mistakes. Just because they spoil the game, even if the opponents mistakes let you win.

Why not learn to appreciate the mistakes? Things like topazg's game is IMHO rather funny and at the sdk level a game is mostly a comedy of errors anyway.
Laugh if you play a self-atari and laugh harder if your opponent misses it.

Hmm, that's even a level higher

topazg wrote:I just played a very embarrassing game last night which I lost due to a bunch of groups being dead. Funny thing was, he had a group that was in the middle that I thought I'd killed ages ago that meant all my groups were alive, and he'd rescued it in a snapback which I'd forgotten about. So we both played about 150 moves (it was an early event!) wondering what on earth the other player was doing

I saw a similar low dan (2 dan against 1 dan I think) game in Tampere. There was a group in the middle that was not obvious whether dead or seki. Each player was so confident about his own judgement that he could not understand why the other one still continues the game.

At the end of the game there was a dispute and they even had to call the referee. The referee could not figure it out either. While they were thinking about calling Seijo-sensei, they thought it would be embarassing and decided to play it out to see the outcome
I don't remember the result but finally they could reach an agreement.

entropi wrote:

topazg wrote:I just played a very embarrassing game last night which I lost due to a bunch of groups being dead. Funny thing was, he had a group that was in the middle that I thought I'd killed ages ago that meant all my groups were alive, and he'd rescued it in a snapback which I'd forgotten about. So we both played about 150 moves (it was an early event!) wondering what on earth the other player was doing

I saw a similar low dan (2 dan against 1 dan I think) game in Tampere. There was a group in the middle that was not obvious whether dead or seki. Each player was so confident about his own judgement that he could not understand why the other one still continues the game.

At the end of the game there was a dispute and they even had to call the referee. The referee could not figure it out either. While they were thinking about calling Seijo-sensei, they thought it would be embarassing and decided to play it out to see the outcome
I don't remember the result but finally they could reach an agreement.

now..i am really curious what this dispute is.
i can not imagine any shape that ref can not figure out.

I don't remember the exact shape but it could be reduced to the flower shape (rabbity six). They just played it out but I don't think they were 100% convinced of the outcome themselves. Maybe they also didnt played the correct moves. Obviously the referee was also not very strong maybe they should have called one of the pros indeed.

Having an angry reaction is OK.

Letting that anger affect anyone else is a different story. An effective V-8 moment (slap to the forehead for those who never saw the TV ads) is fine, but getting pissy about it mainly serves to tee off people around you and embarrass yourself. I'm saying this as a veteran of taking missed plays waaaayyyy too seriously and seeing pair-go teams dissolve over reactions like this as well (1st rule of pair go: NEVER get mad at your partner, no matter what).

Sorry if this seems like an absolute statement, but I've seen a fair amount of misdirected (IMO) emotion come out of this game from time to time.

Bruce "Jung" Young

Magicwand wrote:now..i am really curious what this dispute is.
i can not imagine any shape that ref can not figure out.

Rightly or wrongly, many refs are kyu players, so this is not uncommon

entropi wrote:

topazg wrote:I just played a very embarrassing game last night which I lost due to a bunch of groups being dead. Funny thing was, he had a group that was in the middle that I thought I'd killed ages ago that meant all my groups were alive, and he'd rescued it in a snapback which I'd forgotten about. So we both played about 150 moves (it was an early event!) wondering what on earth the other player was doing

I saw a similar low dan (2 dan against 1 dan I think) game in Tampere. There was a group in the middle that was not obvious whether dead or seki. Each player was so confident about his own judgement that he could not understand why the other one still continues the game.

At the end of the game there was a dispute and they even had to call the referee. The referee could not figure it out either. While they were thinking about calling Seijo-sensei, they thought it would be embarassing and decided to play it out to see the outcome
I don't remember the result but finally they could reach an agreement.

should not they just play it out if they do not agree with each other?

entropi wrote:I don't remember the exact shape but it could be reduced to the flower shape (rabbity six). They just played it out but I don't think they were 100% convinced of the outcome themselves. Maybe they also didnt played the correct moves. Obviously the referee was also not very strong maybe they should have called one of the pros indeed.

they should not call pros but play it out themselves, at 2d, they can still fail to live an alive group or fail to kill a dead group.

kokomi wrote:they should not call pros but play it out themselves, at 2d, they can still fail to live an alive group or fail to kill a dead group.

You are right, for the sake of the game it should be like that. But at the end we still had not learned the absolute truth about that position. Now I cannot even recall the exact shape.

entropi wrote:Recently one of my opponents in an online game found a wonderful endgame tesuji and won the game I was ahead. My first reaction was getting angry against myself because I failed to see that tesuji, which is a normal reaction I believe.

The level I want to reach is the point where my first feeling in such situations will be appreciation of the move instead of the anger.

The opposite with stupid mistakes, overlooking an atari etc. Feeling the same way (probably anger) with the opponents simple mistakes as with my own simple mistakes. Just because they spoil the game, even if the opponents mistakes let you win.

I think then I will have learned something about life from go. Seeing the big picture, being conscious enough not to forget that this is just a game to enjoy and freeing yourself from the obsession of winning.

What do you guys think about that? Is it bullsh.. or do you feel the same way? Can one reach such a level of wisdom without losing the enthusiasm towards the game?

I know the answer to this. Okay, fine, at least I know my answer to this. Every once and a while I'm playing a chess game and it's a relatively crazy game. Tactics flying both directions and we're both trying to tactically out muscle the opponent. Thorough calculation takes a back seat since the game is so complicated. If my opponent wins the game due to a spectacular move, I still enjoy the game. I take comfort in the fact that I created some small piece of chess art. It mattereth not whether I won or lost the game at that point.

On the flip side, though, I don't care if my opponent makes stupid mistakes. I know that I'm capable of the same mistakes, so I see it as some sort of trade. If I don't make an obvious mistake in one game, I will in another so I'm not too worried about it.