I'm following up on the threat I made here and posting a pro game move by move (I'll post a sequence instead if a move is boring or if everyone seems to have predicted it already).
The rules for you:
Feel free to both comment on the move just played and make predictions about the following moves.
Comments from all levels of player are welcome. Often the most educational comments come from stronger players reacting to weaker players' thoughts.
Don't spoil the fun by looking up the game! And if you can't help yourself, don't tell anyone here.
The rules for me:
The game was selected pretty randomly, so I actually don't have much idea how good it is. It certainly has not been selected for any particular didactic purpose.
I'll try to make about a post a day, unless it seems like I should speed up or slow down.
It's a komi game, but I don't want to say the exact value since that will narrow down the time period. If we get to the end and it's obviously really close, I'll divulge the true value then.
What are the implications of ? Where should Black play next?
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:52 am
by topazg
I'm suspicious it's Cho Chikun already (I always feel that way when I see a White 3-3 on the first move).
Implications in my opinion are "not much", as a 3-3 opening has little development potential or influence on the rest of the board. I guess Black will play D16 or D17 next.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:00 pm
by prokofiev
Thanks, sounds fun. At first I feared my handle was being referred to with the topic title
My thoughts:
I haven't come to appreciate the 3-3 as a move. Perhaps it's because at my level a moyo game is rather powerful (invading is hard).
In any case, I'd guess one plan to counter a 3-3 would be to play a moyo game as White can't counter with a moyo. With this in mind, I'll play in the upper left, at say D17, D16, C15, or D15. Maybe D17 is the least likely to lead to a large moyo, but it is "orthodox" after all!
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:10 pm
by Chew Terr
Just to make sure I'm thinking the right way, let me state my thoughts and see if people agree. As far as the direction of play of where it is instead of at C17, I assume it is looking ahead. If at C17, black could take the bottom right, then pressing white's top left low would be the correct direction of play from . In the game as it has been played, the 3-3 will be in a secondary direction of play from black's corner, making it slightly less good for black.
Is this correct? I like the ideas of 3-3 openings, I just want to know when and where they're okay.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:51 pm
by Peter Hansmeier
Should this be in the study group? This should be fun, though.
My thoughts on the move:
There is a guy at my club who is very fond of 3-3 openings and tends to be very greedy about territory. My general strategy against him is to play a thick game, let him get weak in too many places, and then start cutting and killing. I would play d16 to follow this plan.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:54 pm
by dfan
Peter Hansmeier wrote:Should this be in the study group?
Good question, I wasn't sure where it should go. I'm happy to move it if the admins think another location would be more appropriate.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:07 pm
by xed_over
Don't know much about 3-3 plays so early in the game, but I also notice white is potentially offering black the chance to play a diagonal game. You don't see these very often, and I think they can be a little more exciting.
If black chooses the top left, rather than the lower left diagonal, then I think it will either be 4-4 or the 3-4(D17)
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:54 pm
by dfan
Since there probably isn't much more to say, and xed_over guessed the next move, I'll proceed:
Two thoughts, not based on any database analysis, mind you.
I think facing komoku is not a very common strategy for Black: I more often see it being used by white. No idea why that's the case.
Also, I can't remember a lot of double 33 games, even among the professionals who regularly used 33. So I'd expect a 34 parallel to 3, a 44, or maybe a 53 (but I don't know how to use those).
I'm already outside my comfort zone in this game. That should make it interesting.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:35 am
by Harleqin
My feeling is that White should approach the top left corner now.
As a mark of how randomly I selected this game, I didn't even know it started with White playing a double 3-3. I'm glad it is interesting right off the bat.
What now? Does Black make a shimari (and if so, what kind?), or play a 4-4, or something else? What does White have planned in response?
Seems to work well with the top. White's in no position to make a moyo, so it seems fast and one-sided.
Re: Prokovich game
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:45 am
by daniel_the_smith
Wow, I can't imagine playing that, especially as white.
Was it Takemiya who said he didn't play moves on the third line because it looked like they would fall off the board? That's what this looks like to me... :/
Keep the options open to expand down either side, or accross the top.
Whitw has no comfortable play here. There is no easy extension off of a 3-3, so he has no really good play in either of the lower corners. He can approach either of the upper corners, but is sure to get pincered, and the tengen serves as both an impediment to running, and as a ladder breaker.
? Where should Black play next?
. In the game as it has been played, the 3-3 will be in a secondary direction of play from black's corner, making it slightly less good for black.