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What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:01 pm
by negapesuo
EDIT: I am asking about typical Go fans, not professional players.
What do you think a typical Go player makes in a year (in US Dollars)?
I ask this question because there seems to be so little money in the game. Perhaps in the US (where I live), it is largely due to the small amount of people actively playing the game. But even in China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan, you can see evidence of a very underwhelming Go economy.
Most international championship titles have a winner's prize of $500,000 or so, similar to most Japanese titles. Domestic titles in China and Korea seems to command a smaller prize pool. Park Jung Hwan - the highest income earner in South Korea, only earned a little less than $800,000 in 2015 (prize money). Na Hyun, the 10th highest earner earned a $100,000 the same year (prize money).
Of course, relatively speaking, these are large sums of money, since they probably also get side income from endorsements, etc. But considering the fact that this is a game played by over 60,000,000 people worldwide, these numbers start to sound low.
Go community managers, such as Sibicky and BattsGo, command very few viewership and monthly income for what they do. I've heard of internet Go businesses closely because it was financially unsustainable (I forget the name).
It's quite likely that I'm overestimating the impact of 60m people in sustaining a community. After all, other games have literally billions of active fans. But this also got me wondering about the financial situations of Go players, and came up with the following questions.
Do Go fans not have the money to spend, or do they simply choose not to spend?
Do you personally feel reluctant to spend money in Go?
What do you think an adult Go fan typically make in a year?
Do you think the amount of money made by pros is reasonable given the number of fans?
Is Go dying?
I have a hard time answering theses questions myself since I do not have easy access to Go clubs, and never attended a Go Congress. Those who attend may have better insight than I do. Thanks for your answers.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:19 pm
by Drew
Probably close to zero since the majority of the players in Asia (and therefore the world) are retirees.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:34 pm
by Mike Novack
Drew wrote:Probably close to zero since the majority of the players in Asia (and therefore the world) are retirees.
It will make more impact if you look it up for yourself, Drew.
For the US, the statistics are easy to come by. Us old folks (on average) have far more net worth than the youngsters. And our incomes as retirees may even be higher than when we were working.
Of course our medical expenses tend to be much higher too.
Many of us are doing just fine, thank you. But it's our grandkids who are struggling (and who would have a hard time were not "rich" grandparents able to help out now and then.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:54 pm
by drmwc
I suspect there is probably quite a big range in incomes amongst all players. However, if you're asking for income from Go exclusively, as you noted, there is probably a relatively low cap.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:57 pm
by sorin
The assumption in the question is wrong to start with: the amount of money that pro players are paid for winning in tournaments has (almost) nothing to do with the average income of Go fans, but with the number of Go fans.
Pro players are paid by companies which sponsor Go events for advertisement, and the amount of sponsoring has to do with the impact the sponsor expects, which is related to the number of people that are interested in the event.
I am pretty sure that the median income of Go fans is very close to the median income of any other large enough and geographically diverse group that has a common hobby.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:12 pm
by negapesuo
sorin wrote:The assumption in the question is wrong to start with: the amount of money that pro players are paid for winning in tournaments has (almost) nothing to do with the average income of Go fans, but with the number of Go fans.
Pro players are paid by companies which sponsor Go events for advertisement, and the amount of sponsoring has to do with the impact the sponsor expects, which is related to the number of people that are interested in the event.
I am pretty sure that the median income of Go fans is very close to the median income of any other large enough and geographically diverse group that has a common hobby.
I've already addressed that point in the post
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:02 pm
by Knotwilg
Since Go is an intellectual activity and intellect correlates quite well with income, one can assume that the average income of Go players is above the average income of the population.
However, the distribution is geographically skewed. The numbers are high in Korea, China and Japan, while they are low in the Western world. I don't know how well the above assumption holds in Korea, for example.
The internet businesses you may have heard going out of business, were probably targeting the non-Asian world. Also, they are a small sample to draw big conclusions. I've followed the case of GoGameGuru closely and several things compromised their success: they were vocally all about spreading Go and just trying to fund themselves doing so by making some money, which is not the best outset for making money. They were content providers who moved into the business of online retail, which requires a whole different skillset than understanding Go ... and so on.
I'm in table tennis now and it's just ridiculous how little people want to spend on a teacher or subscription fee and how much they spend on rubbers. In most skill oriented hobby's people tend to overspend on gear and underspend on education or training. I guess that's what drove Gogameguru to retail. I follow another content provider in table tennis called Pingskills and while they provide massive free content on how to play, the questions they get are 50% about "tell me what is a good bat".
However, the scope for retail in Go is not very big. You can sell books and boards, but many people play go online and get their training material from there too.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:11 pm
by negapesuo
Knotwilg wrote:Since Go is an intellectual activity and intellect correlates quite well with income, one can assume that the average income of Go players is above the average income of the population.
However, the distribution is geographically skewed. The numbers are high in Korea, China and Japan, while they are low in the Western world. I don't know how well the above assumption holds in Korea, for example.
The internet businesses you may have heard going out of business, were probably targeting the non-Asian world. Also, they are a small sample to draw big conclusions. I've followed the case of GoGameGuru closely and several things compromised their success: they were vocally all about spreading Go and just trying to fund themselves doing so by making some money, which is not the best outset for making money. They were content providers who moved into the business of online retail, which requires a whole different skillset than understanding Go ... and so on.
I'm in table tennis now and it's just ridiculous how little people want to spend on a teacher or subscription fee and how much they spend on rubbers. In most skill oriented hobby's people tend to overspend on gear and underspend on education or training. I guess that's what drove Gogameguru to retail. I follow another content provider in table tennis called Pingskills and while they provide massive free content on how to play, the questions they get are 50% about "tell me what is a good bat".
However, the scope for retail in Go is not very big. You can sell books and boards, but many people play go online and get their training material from there too.
I never thought of it that way, but I think you are right. I personally spend hundreds of dollars on tennis rackets and balls, but I couldn't be bothered to dish out $20 for a tennis lesson session. Strange, since the lesson will probably do me a lot more good in improve, compared to the tennis racket and new "kicks".
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:55 pm
by Bantari
Knotwilg wrote:In most skill oriented hobby's people tend to overspend on gear and underspend on education or training.
I might be old and cynical, but from my observation this has to do with the fact that training and lessons are hard way to progress, while buying shiny new equipment is the easy way. A lot of people are all about shiny and easy, especially in the western world. Education and training is hard work, and who needs that?...
Might be one reason Go is not all that popular. Compared to, say, video games... Or to watching TV.
Same goes for pretty much everything. For example:
Baseball players < People going to baseball games < People watching baseball on TV.
Now I get off of my grumpy box...
PS>
People are lazy, even in things they like. Sometimes extremely so.
I had a friend once who married a pregnant woman.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:38 pm
by Kirby
I live comfortably financially, but I wouldn't say that it's due to go. If I spent less time on go and focused more on career, I'd probably make more money.
That being said, things that you learn in go such as self-discipline, self-improvement, focus, concentration, etc., can be valuable skills in a career.
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:39 am
by Jujube
Bantari wrote:Knotwilg wrote:In most skill oriented hobby's people tend to overspend on gear and underspend on education or training.
I might be old and cynical, but from my observation this has to do with the fact that training and lessons are hard way to progress, while buying shiny new equipment is the easy way. A lot of people are all about shiny and easy, especially in the western world. Education and training is hard work, and who needs that?...
Might be one reason Go is not all that popular. Compared to, say, video games... Or to watching TV.
Same goes for pretty much everything. For example:
Baseball players < People going to baseball games < People watching baseball on TV.
Now I get off of my grumpy box...
PS>
People are lazy, even in things they like. Sometimes extremely so.
I had a friend once who married a pregnant woman.
And people (myself included) like having things they can buy and then keep afterwards. A book of game reviews takes what? A hundred hours to get through? Or we could play 100 games and have a few sessions with a trainer. But there's no book to keep afterwards. My improvement is hampered by this reluctance to train and do hard work.
This reminds me of a post on Reddit:
- 46NE-l2_O05UhSKWr-6FJWaiqu9ZiNy-5KFz0BCkbhU.jpg (77.4 KiB) Viewed 15329 times
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:47 am
by Mef
Knotwilg wrote: In most skill oriented hobby's people tend to overspend on gear and underspend on education or training.
One data point -- in the US, a full-time Golf channel launched almost a decade before a full-time football channel, even though the viewership of golf is much lower than NFL. The enormous equipment industry for golf (as well as a correlation between playing golf and buying other luxury goods) meant there was no shortage of sponsors for shows.
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:59 am
by EdLee
in the US, a full-time Golf channel launched almost a decade before a full-time football channel, even though the viewership of golf is much lower than NFL.
Super BowlPGA
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:34 pm
by shoryuu
I find it very odd that you can mix up professional tournament prize winnings with the total number of Go players in the world. That 60 million figure you quoted do not have access to even have a chance to win the prize money so that's a huge logical fallacy. The prize winnings for amateurs are so low that you would have to win a tournament with couple thousand dollars prize money every month to have a comparable income to a basic job. Also you would probably have to fly around a lot so you are already losing money before you started a tournament.
But you are right, this is a very top-down system with only the top few winning money that a rich person would make annually, a couple of people earning somewhat equivalent to median wage, and a whole lot of people not making barely enough to sustain themselves at all. Most do teaching to make a side income. Very similar to bowling in terms of earning income. Most don't make anything respectable at all and have to open pro shops or do coaching as a side income. Some even still hold their full time jobs. Look at the PBA website. I remember seeing 2 or 3 figure ANNUAL prize winnings from some PBA pro bowlers there.
And I think the website you are thinking about is go9dan.com. I believe Lee Sedol invested into the website (don't quote me).
Re: What is the average income of Go players?
Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:25 pm
by hyperpape
shoryuu wrote:I find it very odd that you can mix up professional tournament prize winnings with the total number of Go players in the world. That 60 million figure you quoted do not have access to even have a chance to win the prize money so that's a huge logical fallacy.
I confess I don't follow. You think who said what, which is a fallacy because...?