Life In 19x19

Hi all,

This week I managed to pick up a DGT 2010 timer at a fraction of the new price. I hadn’t seen much of a review here, so thought I would post up some impressions and thoughts. Elsewhere online the reviews are very much chess-centric, so I’ll mostly focus on the main Go timing methods; Japanese and Canadian byo-yomi, and Fischer.

The clock I bought was the limited edition, and the red and black is very appealing to me. The clock seems to be well made. The rocker switch on top has a nice positive feel to it, and makes a satisfying soft thunk when pressed. The screen is large and clear. The buttons for setting the clock are a good size, and work well. The power button is recessed on the bottom of the clock. It makes it easy to life the front of the clock up and press it to reset for a new game. Overall the physical design seems to be well thought out and implemented.

The clock has 10 different timing methodologies, with each one have a preset or presets, and a manual set option. There is a list of these options printed on the bottom of the clock, and selecting them is easy. You press the + or - button, followed by the tick button. Setting the parameters for manual settings is similarly easy. The clock will store your manual settings, and the next time the clock is turned on, the option last used will display by default. This is very convenient if you use the same settings often.

Japanese byo-yomi is a little strange in it’s implementation. Instead of the number of periods and the time being displayed, only the total byo-yomi time is displayed. So, for 5X 30 seconds, 2:30 is displayed, with a small “byo-yomi” appearing in the bottom of the display. There is no audible warning as each period is about to expire, only a warning of the last 10 seconds, and constant warning for the last 5 seconds- these warnings are a “beep”. For me, a better implementation would be to have “5.30” displayed, and audible warnings for each period.

Canadian byo-yomi is a little disappointing too. There is no move number until the next period displayed. The manual isn’t really clear, but the clock will add the time on after the required number of moves is made. This can be set between 5-25. The total number of moves made can be displayed by holding the tick button, but this is not particularly helpful. I imagine the best solution would be to have your stones divided up in the correct numbers, so that you can get a visual on how many you have left to play.

Fischer time works well, there is little to say here. Any combination of main time, two lots of main time, and seconds/minutes per move can be used.

I’ve never played chess, and looking through some of the other options there appears to be some that would work well for go. Bronstein seems like a good option, and the hourglass could be fun to try and put your opponent under time pressure and keep them there. I imagine that would be a good alternative for blitz games.

In all time settings, different settings can be easily set up for each player.

Overall, I’m happy enough with my purchase. If I had been actively looking to buy a clock and willing to pay full price, I would have looked at other alternatives. I’m most likely going to use it primarily in japanese byo-yomi, and I believe that the implementation of that could be improved upon. The range of options is good, the setting of times is very user friendly, and I expect that the clock will last a long time.


Zac

Personally, I don't like these DGT clocks at all.

The dire byo-yomi that you describe is tolerable if needs must but they clearly phoned it in when they were implementing those modes and, for the game of Go, the DGT timer is sub-optimal in my opinion.

Nevertheless, I wish you (and your opponents) much fun with your new time keeper.

Edit: Just use Fischer time. It works the best on these clocks and is my preferred time setting, anyway. It doesn't help for tournament practice because Fischer time tournaments are almost non-existent but, hey, you can't have everything.

I definitely agree that it is not ideal. If I had paid full price I would be pretty disappointed. I'm likely to only use it for keeping club games to a reasonable length, so other options rather than byo yomi will be OK, I just suspect that most people are most comfortable with that setting.
Hopefully this review gives go players a better idea of whether they want to consider this clock or not.
Can I ask why you prefer Fischer? I usually play 10-20 minutes plus 5x30, what would be comparable Fischer settings?

There has been some very good stuff written about Fischer Time -- I think searching Sensei's would be a good start.

Personally, I like it because it matches how I play Go. I might spend a very long time reading a sequence, for instance, and then speed up while actually following that sequence. Fischer Time encourages playing this way whereas Canadian, for example, might force you to read deeply on the very last move of a period and be unable to play in this way. I have *definitely* lost games due to this.

There is a formula for finding good Fischer Time parameters:

[list=]
[*] Identify a desired total game time. For example: 1 hour or 60 minutes or 3600 seconds.
[*] Decide on a main-time length: perhaps 10 minutes or 600 seconds.
[*] Subtract twice the main-time length (there are two players): 3600 - 600 - 600 = 2400
[*] Divide the remaining seconds by the rough average number of moves in the game -- about 250 for 19 x 19: 9.6 seconds per move.
[*] Do some rounding: 10 minutes + 10 seconds per move should split an hour fairly between two players.
[/list]

This, too, is a big pro for Fischer Time in my opinion: you can easily employ the time system to split an allotted expected total time fairly. If that is not the very reason for existence of clocks in the first place, I don't know what is!

Charlie wrote:There is a formula for finding good Fischer Time parameters:

[list=]
[*] Identify a desired total game time. For example: 1 hour or 60 minutes or 3600 seconds.
[*] Decide on a main-time length: perhaps 10 minutes or 600 seconds.
[*] Subtract twice the main-time length (there are two players): 3600 - 600 - 600 = 2400
[*] Divide the remaining seconds by the rough average number of moves in the game -- about 250 for 19 x 19: 9.6 seconds per move.
[*] Do some rounding: 10 minutes + 10 seconds per move should split an hour fairly between two players.
[/list]

This, too, is a big pro for Fischer Time in my opinion: you can easily employ the time system to split an allotted expected total time fairly. If that is not the very reason for existence of clocks in the first place, I don't know what is!

Charlie,
Please may I have your permission to copy your text above onto Sensei's Library? ( Relevant link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SLCopyright ).
I think this is a good argument in favour of Fischer time.

PeterHB wrote:Charlie,
Please may I have your permission to copy your text above onto Sensei's Library? ( Relevant link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SLCopyright ).
I think this is a good argument in favour of Fischer time.

Sure. Go right ahead.

Another idea came to mind: Fischer Time is also really, really easy to explain to new players. "You have 10 minutes. Every time you play a move, you get 10 more seconds. End of." So much easier than the other common time systems.

Thanks

The problem is not the byoyomi.

The problem is the shitty byoyomi implementation of the clock.

How about a better clock design instead of changing time controls to fisher time? I prefer the analog clocks by far to the digital ones.

I like this implementation of the byo-yomi. It tells exactly how much time remains until you loose on time.

With the usual implementation, I always has to think "I'm in period 3, so I have 2 lifes left... I am in period 2, so I only have one life left... I am in period 1, so I am playing under sudden death..."

But in fact, I have no problem with any of the two methods.

Pio2001 wrote:I like this implementation of the byo-yomi...

I wouldn't mind it, if it would beep at the end of each period. Using certain byo-yomi intervals it's pretty easy to see where you are at; anything weird like 25 seconds would throw me, I think, because it would require a bit of mental calculation; I'm at 1:07= 67 seconds, 2x25=50, 67-50=17... With 10, 20, 30, 60 seconds I could glance and know straight away how close I am to "losing" a period.

I think the arguments for Fischer timing are interesting. I think I mentioned before I like the idea of other delay time settings, too. I think something like a 10 seconds delay + 10 minutes main would work well. I kind of dislike the "reward" of Fischer for playing fast moves. Pointless plays could be made quickly in order add time back on your clock. With Bronstein or simple delays this is minimised.

The way I see it, there are two different purposes to using a timer; to set a pace for individual moves, or to set an upper limit on overall game time.
I think for fast games, setting a pace per move is OK; byo-yomi or delays can set a pace per move, canadian can set a pace for a set number of moves.
For longer games, where only an upper limit is really wanted, a timing system that lets players choose their move pace is better, in my opinion. Absolute is not ideal, because the chances of clock abuse or mishandling of time and a loss on time is magnified. I prefer a system where a player is "punished" in the sense he must now revert to a time-per-move, rather than outright losing. Fishcer, Bronstein, Byo-yomi etc. all seem like good options.

zac wrote:I wouldn't mind it, if it would beep at the end of each period.

You're right, it doesn't beep until the last period... that's a drawback indeed.

Pio2001 wrote:

zac wrote:I wouldn't mind it, if it would beep at the end of each period.

You're right, it doesn't beep until the last period... that's a drawback indeed.

The DGT1005 Byo-yomi uses beeping sounds to indicate the intervals, with a long beep towards the end of the period in similar fashion of the calling out of seconds in traditional Go timing.

Quote from https://www.go-spiele.de/en/go-chess-clock-dgt-2010-6172.html

Waylon wrote:

Pio2001 wrote:

zac wrote:I wouldn't mind it, if it would beep at the end of each period.

You're right, it doesn't beep until the last period... that's a drawback indeed.

The DGT1005 Byo-yomi uses beeping sounds to indicate the intervals, with a long beep towards the end of the period in similar fashion of the calling out of seconds in traditional Go timing.

Quote from https://www.go-spiele.de/en/go-chess-clock-dgt-2010-6172.html

I'be struggled to get much information about that clock, but from what I've seen it appears that the number of periods are displayed, not the total time, and if it's correct that it beeps at each interval, I think if would be a very good option, if all that you wanted was Japanese byo-yomi and nothing else. I'm not sure if DGT still makes then, though. Seems like the market would be much smaller than multi-purpose clocks.

I created a short video showing byo-yomi (I call it byo-Bronstein) in operation. It also goes through all the beeps that will happen using a short time setting. A sample of the beep sound was impossible to find, it seems an appropriate volume and tone.
https://youtu.be/VXnKZOX_Ozc