Life In 19x19

I seem to have a problem with allowing my opponent to create large moyos or groups, especially in the beginning of the game. I have no idea how to prevent this/ penetrate those boxed in areas or strong groups. Im getting obliterated left and right, but that is partially because of bad reading and not being 100% focused. Outside of that, i am a bit lost on how to handle some of these large groups/moyos. Any insight and additional criticism would be helpful. Thanks.

Your 13x13 game:

What if B11 ?

This shape is unbearable. What if B7 ?

What if cuts at C7 ?

C6 or C7 better.

Bad habit; W should connect directly.

Do you need it ?

What if you push at H3 ?

Same bad habit and mistake as .

Game v. Timur:

Strange. Can you think of another local candidate ? Strange. Can you think of another local candidate ? Soft. Can you think of another local candidate ? Wrong for 2 reasons.
Locally, Can you think of another candidate ?Globally ?

In general, you'll get better at this as you start to value sente more. I don't mean the kind of sente where you just force your opponent to respond, but rather that kind where you are comfortable playing tenuki. Then you can do what you want and if you think your opponent is building something too big, then you can get there first.

Also, as your reading gets better, you'll learn when you can get ahead with a hane rather than a safe nobi extension.

Here, for example, you played

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
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$$ | . . X X . X 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But does this hane look unsafe to you? It may. It depends on reading and experience. Try. Then look at the hint later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O 1 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Always look for a chance to take sente. Here, is slack. It doesn't affect black much. Now is your chance. What do you do?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 26
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . X X X . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O O X O O X . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far; this has been very insightful. Im gonna put all of this information together to make a sgf review file to study from

Hi,

what I noticed is that you have a tendency to exchange forcing moves from the inside of your opponents territory, that help him towards the outside and dont help you at all, because the inside stones are dead. I saw this in your 9x9 game, but I want to point to the situation in the 19x19 game against Timur at move 73. Here, you want to hane from the outside at o15, which you did at , and which is good instinct. But exchanging for took away a lot of power of this hane. If you played it for 73, it would have threatened a double atari at o17. Hence, he cannot block at p15 as in the game and has to either retreat at p16 or even connect at o17 anyway. Now it should be ovious after he connected at o17, that you would much prefer your stone at o15 over having one at n18 that doesnt help you. Tis way, you get to have sente without him blocking you off at p15 and can still potentially cut the p14 stone off.

In general: why was this atari for 73 bad? because you had 2 choices where to atari (o17 or n18) and you shouldnt pick one unless you are certain you wont need the other or you are afraid your opponent will prevent them both by spending a move. In this case o17 was the better choice of atari, since it has impact on the outside(making o15 an atari), but you dont really need to play it now, because even the threat of the o17 adds the same power to the o15 move.
By choosing n18, you gave that up. Always consider your options before you play an atari or forcing move, especially if there are other foring move you can choose from. Keep in mind, you might not want to choose at all for now, keeping all options and have your opponent worry about all of them. Of course, this is different if the defect is so big that giving up a move to defend it would be good for your opponent, in that case you should not give him that chance and strike immediately.


Of course, you messed up the life and death on top right in that game big time, you probably saw that he could have killed you with 108, since you fixed it with 109. Any of the moves starting with 101 to 107 could have prevented this(103 was good though). 101 is bad, you dont need to connect now. Just descent s14 gives more eyespace.
With 105 you can just go down to t15. In the "rectangular 8 in the corner", white can make a seki(in gote) after all outside libs are filled, so you would want to put in another stone once he fills the last outside lib, but even if you dont, you shouldnt die. Whats more, he needs to protect his two stones in gote after you descend!
With 107 you need to block at t16(again, enlarge the potenial eyespace), instead of making a bulky five, and again, your group is fine! Also, again this block would even be sente thanks to the cut at s13!

Schachus wrote:Hi,

what I noticed is that you have a tendency to exchange forcing moves from the inside of your opponents territory, that help him towards the outside and dont help you at all, because the inside stones are dead. I saw this in your 9x9 game, but I want to point to the situation in the 19x19 game against Timur at move 73. Here, you want to hane from the outside at o15, which you did at , and which is good instinct. But exchanging for took away a lot of power of this hane. If you played it for 73, it would have threatened a double atari at o17. Hence, he cannot block at p15 as in the game and has to either retreat at p16 or even connect at o17 anyway. Now it should be ovious after he connected at o17, that you would much prefer your stone at o15 over having one at n18 that doesnt help you. Tis way, you get to have sente without him blocking you off at p15 and can still potentially cut the p14 stone off.

In general: why was this atari for 73 bad? because you had 2 choices where to atari (o17 or n18) and you shouldnt pick one unless you are certain you wont need the other or you are afraid your opponent will prevent them both by spending a move. In this case o17 was the better choice of atari, since it has impact on the outside(making o15 an atari), but you dont really need to play it now, because even the threat of the o17 adds the same power to the o15 move.
By choosing n18, you gave that up. Always consider your options before you play an atari or forcing move, especially if there are other foring move you can choose from. Keep in mind, you might not want to choose at all for now, keeping all options and have your opponent worry about all of them. Of course, this is different if the defect is so big that giving up a move to defend it would be good for your opponent, in that case you should not give him that chance and strike immediately.


Of course, you messed up the life and death on top right in that game big time, you probably saw that he could have killed you with 108, since you fixed it with 109. Any of the moves starting with 101 to 107 could have prevented this(103 was good though). 101 is bad, you dont need to connect now. Just descent s14 gives more eyespace.
With 105 you can just go down to t15. In the "rectangular 8 in the corner", white can make a seki(in gote) after all outside libs are filled, so you would want to put in another stone once he fills the last outside lib, but even if you dont, you shouldnt die. Whats more, he needs to protect his two stones in gote after you descend!
With 107 you need to block at t16(again, enlarge the potenial eyespace), instead of making a bulky five, and again, your group is fine! Also, again this block would even be sente thanks to the cut at s13!

This is some very critical input and I appreciate the feedback. Looks like a lot of simple mistakes and bad reading on my end. Glad you were able to point out some of these bad habits so i can improve on them

o00o00o wrote:I seem to have a problem with allowing my opponent to create large moyos or groups, especially in the beginning of the game. I have no idea how to prevent this/ penetrate those boxed in areas or strong groups. Im getting obliterated left and right, but that is partially because of bad reading and not being 100% focused. Outside of that, i am a bit lost on how to handle some of these large groups/moyos. Any insight and additional criticism would be helpful. Thanks.

I only looked at your 9x9 and 13x13 games. Little of your concerns above seem to be critical to your actual play. Basically you do not yet understand life and death. Work on that first when you are not simply playing to enjoy yourself.

In the 9x9 game you were leading when your opponent invaded the lower left corner. If you had been able to prevent White from living, the game was yours.

In the 13x13 game you were leading when you went off the rails with the invasion at G2 with Black 85. If you had simply blocked at L2, you get the hane and connection at G13 in sente and then can play the placement at C12 in the upper left corner. It seems like White has to answer at you get to choose whether to play ko or settle for a seki, reducing White to zero points there. But this continuation is a fairly hard life and death issue as well. If you simply play the hane at G13 and then the second hane at D13, you would still have won by a couple of points.

Choosing L2 and rejecting G2 are much more fundamental. You will get better with practice but at this point concentrating on the basics will help you more than worrying about handling moyos effectively. That sort of thing is all about fighting in the end. You have the spirit for it but are lacking the technique so far. That will come with time.

ez4u wrote:

o00o00o wrote:I seem to have a problem with allowing my opponent to create large moyos or groups, especially in the beginning of the game. I have no idea how to prevent this/ penetrate those boxed in areas or strong groups. Im getting obliterated left and right, but that is partially because of bad reading and not being 100% focused. Outside of that, i am a bit lost on how to handle some of these large groups/moyos. Any insight and additional criticism would be helpful. Thanks.

I only looked at your 9x9 and 13x13 games. Little of your concerns above seem to be critical to your actual play. Basically you do not yet understand life and death. Work on that first when you are not simply playing to enjoy yourself.

In the 9x9 game you were leading when your opponent invaded the lower left corner. If you had been able to prevent White from living, the game was yours.

In the 13x13 game you were leading when you went off the rails with the invasion at G2 with Black 85. If you had simply blocked at L2, you get the hane and connection at G13 in sente and then can play the placement at C12 in the upper left corner. It seems like White has to answer at you get to choose whether to play ko or settle for a seki, reducing White to zero points there. But this continuation is a fairly hard life and death issue as well. If you simply play the hane at G13 and then the second hane at D13, you would still have won by a couple of points.

Choosing L2 and rejecting G2 are much more fundamental. You will get better with practice but at this point concentrating on the basics will help you more than worrying about handling moyos effectively. That sort of thing is all about fighting in the end. You have the spirit for it but are lacking the technique so far. That will come with time.

Focus more on fundamentals and tsumego. I gotcha. There are a few videos im gonna start watching as well (Nick Sibicky, Dwyarin, etc.) so that may help a little too. Thanks for taking a look at the games.

I think a common idea from Schachus and ez4u's points is this: if you make a move you should expect your opponent to make a good answer, and then you need to decide if the exchange of your move for their move gave you a better (or at least as good) position as before. If yes, it's a good move so play it (but maybe there's an even better one!), if no, then it's a bad move so don't play it. So with Schachus's 73 atari, if your opponent is stupid and ignores then you can capture 2 stones which is great, but he will connect and then who did the exchange help more? (white, lost o15 power). Or with ez4u's g2, what did you expect white to answer? If tenuki and then you can do something good that's a dream* like ignoring the atari above. Or if white answers at h2 then is that exchange good for you? No, white is alive, and now L2 block doesn't threaten to capture the k2 stone. White found an even better answer, locally ignoring your move as it didn't threaten anything and pushed at L2. You then connected at k4: what does this do? Are you scared of white pushing there? Can he cut? No. How about block at m2? That would make your territory bigger and stop white going further to make more territory and eyes. It leaves a cut at m3, but as that's on the 2nd line you can atari to the edge and capture white, so no worry.

* unless it's a ko threat, in which case it can be ok to play a move which is only good if your opponent ignores, but even then you should try to play ko threats which lose as little as possible, and here the other atari would indeed be a better ko threat as well as a better normal move not during a ko.

Uberdude wrote:Or with ez4u's g2, what did you expect white to answer? If tenuki and then you can do something good that's a dream* like ignoring the atari above. Or if white answers at h2 then is that exchange good for you? No, white is alive, and now L2 block doesn't threaten to capture the k2 stone.

My guess is that the thought process behind G2 was "maybe this is a vital point and I can make a nakade, let's see what happens" accompanied by zero reading (oOOoOOo can confirm or deny). This is pretty common even into the SDK levels. Tsumego and experience will help with this, as well as a determination to always to try to read at least the main variation to a depth of 3 ply (my move, my opponent's response, my response to that). It doesn't sound like a lot but it's a lot better than 1!

dfan wrote:

Uberdude wrote:Or with ez4u's g2, what did you expect white to answer? If tenuki and then you can do something good that's a dream* like ignoring the atari above. Or if white answers at h2 then is that exchange good for you? No, white is alive, and now L2 block doesn't threaten to capture the k2 stone.

My guess is that the thought process behind G2 was "maybe this is a vital point and I can make a nakade, let's see what happens" accompanied by zero reading (oOOoOOo can confirm or deny). This is pretty common even into the SDK levels. Tsumego and experience will help with this, as well as a determination to always to try to read at least the main variation to a depth of 3 ply (my move, my opponent's response, my response to that). It doesn't sound like a lot but it's a lot better than 1!

This is exactly what i was thinking during the game, but looking back it was awful reading/ego where i essentially just ended up throwing away stones. Like you, Uberdude, and others have stated, tsumego, tesuji, and endgame tactics are major things i need to work on as well as how to make moves that are multipurpose (defends, attacks, etc.)instead of stones that only serve one purpose or throwing away stones hoping for the best.