Life In 19x19

Hi all,

Apologies to anyone that is also posts on /r/baduk as I also posted this question there.
I have been playing the Chinese Opening as black for the last couple of weeks, playing the sequence as shown;



Is it OK for black to just jump to 3-3? Is there some other response that is more consistent with the chinese opening? Is white ending up with a wall that faces the lower side, with my 3-4 in the bottom right corner good for White/Black, neutral? Am I overthinking it a bit and blacks response from here is more a matter of taste than anything else?

Thanks,

Zac

If you check out waltheri online pattern search, pros prefer to either jump out, take top right 3x3 or enlarge Chinese moyo. The jump out uses the Chinese on a large scale. It seems jumping into lower left 3x3 does not work with Chinese fuseki, white gets sente and outside to waste black opening.

There is a YouTube video by gennan about alphago opening teaching tool regards Chinese opening, turns out alphago prefers to enclose a corner rather than make a framework. But likes the micro Chinese over traditional Chinese. Still, all good up to 6dan+

nasdaq wrote:If you check out waltheri online pattern search, pros prefer to either jump out, take top right 3x3 or enlarge Chinese moyo. The jump out uses the Chinese on a large scale. It seems jumping into lower left 3x3 does not work with Chinese fuseki, white gets sente and outside to waste black opening.

There is a YouTube video by gennan about alphago opening teaching tool regards Chinese opening, turns out alphago prefers to enclose a corner rather than make a framework. But likes the micro Chinese over traditional Chinese. Still, all good up to 6dan+

Thanks for the reply,

Someone on /r/baduk compiled all the variations from waltheri for me, which was very kind. It's a site I had heard the name of but never visited. Had forgotten about the possibility of checking the alphago teach thing, too.

Part of my reason for playing some games with the Chinese opening is because it always scared me a bit as white, so this way I learn how to play with and against it. I also find that by playing a fairly well understood opening that I learn some pretty important general principles. I'll probably aim for my next 50-100 games playing it as black, then the next logical step seems to be the micro-chinese for a while. Then, who knows? It should keep me busy for the next couple of months, anyway.

I'm using the high Chinese for black. The Sanrensei and Chinese always gave me a bit of fear too when I was starting playing too. They still do a bit
Black can attack and dictate the flow of the game which I don't like at all.

As a general strategy, building thickness on the left half of the board as black tends to work quite well with the Chinese opening. So that's a plus for jumping out and press after the pincer.

P.S. <admin>There was a duplicate copy of this thread which I deleted</admin>

And now for something completely different:

(This way black can fix the mistake of R9 )

zac wrote:Hi all,

Apologies to anyone that is also posts on /r/baduk as I also posted this question there.
I have been playing the Chinese Opening as black for the last couple of weeks, playing the sequence as shown;



Is it OK for black to just jump to 3-3?

Yes, but, as has been pointed out, it is not currently a pro choice. However, Lee Changho jumped into the 3-3 after he played the 3-3 in the top right corner and White extended on the top side.

Is there some other response that is more consistent with the chinese opening?

I don't think so. If Black can jump out and then build a wall on the bottom side while White lives underneath, maybe. But White can just sacrifice the stone on the bottom side, which is what pros do these days.

Is white ending up with a wall that faces the lower side, with my 3-4 in the bottom right corner good for White/Black, neutral?

Well, it's not such a great wall, is it? In the Lee Changho game mentioned above, White (Choi Myeonghun) made a two space extension from it on the bottom side.

The AlphaGo teaching tool does not recommend the one space pincer, but the two space high pincer, instead, or the keima response. The two space high pincer makes sense to me, versus the Black moyo on the right side.

Am I overthinking it a bit and blacks response from here is more a matter of taste than anything else?

Hard to say if you are overthinking. I also thought a lot about the opening at your level, and I don't think that that hurt me too much. OTOH, I think that it is important to try out a lot of different ideas. Don't strain at gnats.

In the short run, trying out a lot of different ideas may not be so good for your win rate, since some of the ideas will not be very good. However, trying out different ideas teaches you lessons you might not otherwise learn. And that will make you a better player.

Edit: IMX, the SDK level seems to be where players get into ruts. You can't make the right play if you never even consider it.

Bill Spight wrote:
Well, it's not such a great wall, is it? In the Lee Changho game mentioned above, White (Choi Myeonghun) made a two space extension from it on the bottom side.

The AlphaGo teaching tool does not recommend the one space pincer, but the two space high pincer, instead, or the keima response. The two space high pincer makes sense to me, versus the Black moyo on the right side.

I feel like it's not such a great wall, because the pincer is close, meaning if white wants to do something he needs a big extension, prompting me to secure my bottom right corner, and there is still aji left in my original approach stone. I guess the wall still helps for any fighting in the center later, or for any invasion on the right side. It should be a fair trade for the territory I get in the corner. Does this line of thinking make sense?

I think that it is important to try out a lot of different ideas. Don't strain at gnats.

In the short run, trying out a lot of different ideas may not be so good for your win rate, since some of the ideas will not be very good. However, trying out different ideas teaches you lessons you might not otherwise learn. And that will make you a better player.

Edit: IMX, the SDK level seems to be where players get into ruts. You can't make the right play if you never even consider it.

One of the problems I have is discerning the difference between a "good idea, poorly executed" and a "a bad idea, well executed". I think often my play falls into the latter category; I don't make huge blunders/local tactical mistakes, aside from the embarrassing misreads, but thinking globally is now the big struggle. The opening has been particularly interesting for me, and I think learning some 'standard' openings helps a little bit with forming an overall strategy.

I particularly like your final point; stronger players seem to play moves that I don't even consider. This applies for local situations and globally, where what I think is important/big doesn't always agree with what my stronger opponents play. Now I'm in the mid-sdk's looking at pro/high dan games is starting to feel quite useful, to be exposed to lots of good ideas. Having a particular opening to focus on and practice gives me a sense of direction, or maybe a false sense of understanding something.

Hopefully any ruts are more like speed bumps...


Zac

zac wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:
Well, it's not such a great wall, is it? In the Lee Changho game mentioned above, White (Choi Myeonghun) made a two space extension from it on the bottom side.

The AlphaGo teaching tool does not recommend the one space pincer, but the two space high pincer, instead, or the keima response. The two space high pincer makes sense to me, versus the Black moyo on the right side.

I feel like it's not such a great wall, because the pincer is close, meaning if white wants to do something he needs a big extension, prompting me to secure my bottom right corner, and there is still aji left in my original approach stone. I guess the wall still helps for any fighting in the center later, or for any invasion on the right side. It should be a fair trade for the territory I get in the corner. Does this line of thinking make sense?

This one space low pincer is one of those joseki that I do not feel is equitable on an empty board. But AlphaGo's second line crawl instead of the solid connection forces me to reconsider. But your sense of a fair trade is what you have to go with, at least as a working hypothesis. In the end you have to rely upon your own judgement.

Znosko-Borovsky wrote:Do not lose confidence in your judgment.

I think that it is important to try out a lot of different ideas. Don't strain at gnats.

In the short run, trying out a lot of different ideas may not be so good for your win rate, since some of the ideas will not be very good. However, trying out different ideas teaches you lessons you might not otherwise learn. And that will make you a better player.

Edit: IMX, the SDK level seems to be where players get into ruts. You can't make the right play if you never even consider it.

One of the problems I have is discerning the difference between a "good idea, poorly executed" and a "a bad idea, well executed". I think often my play falls into the latter category; I don't make huge blunders/local tactical mistakes, aside from the embarrassing misreads, but thinking globally is now the big struggle.

In chess, Znosko-Borovsky also said, more or less, that a second best plan, well executed, is better than the best plan, poorly executed. OC, chess is more tactical than go.

Hopefully any ruts are more like speed bumps...

Stumbling blocks into stepping stones.