Life In 19x19

Bah I played this ridiculous game.
My opponent changed the joseki and I screwed it up completely. We got in this strange situation early on in the game and I decided to forget about this game. When you play like an idiot, it's time to resign.

What move didn't you expect, f18? It's another choice to blocking outside. Rather than the defending the corner normal would be to crawl with your pincer stone. The kick and descend can be a good exchange for white in that it makes the wedge weakness a bigger problem for black so he probably needs to come back to fix it, plus it makes invading the 3-3 harder. I suppose you play the kick from joseki memorisation rather than understanding why it is a good exchange, so this is a good learning opportunity!

Here is the textbook reason why kick can be a good exchange (and why black should maybe block the outside instead of descend, both are playable, and indeed checking the AlphaGo opening book it sometimes prefers descend to block). If you don't kick then maybe black will play for the moyo with 8 instead of the traditional joseki connection at a (to which white would probably push at b and black feels sad to lose the moyo and connection to the top right 4-4 stone). Iirc Cho Hunhyun liked to play this 8 in the 90s a lot vs Lee Changho (see http://ps.waltheri.net/424406).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O 1 5 . 7 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 3 X 2 6 b . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X a 4 . . . . 8 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If white then says "hey you didn't defend there, so I'll wedge" then this probably happens (another choice is a to stop black playing there or attaching one left). The top left 3-3 is not white territory yet, black's 3-3 should live later, so black doesn't mind white connecting through with 13 so much as he gets sente and keep developing the moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O O . O . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 3 O X X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, if black tries the same thing with white having made the kick-descend exchange:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . O 3 7 . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 5 X 4 8 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 6 . . . . 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Then now if white wedges the marked exchange is good for white as black can no longer live at 3-3, so white is making more profit here (white can just block a at b).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm9
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . W X . O O O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . 5 3 O X X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 X . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So probably black ought to defend, but then white can push out and is happy. A positive of defending is black can play a, but white doesn't mind so much.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm10
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . O O O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X X X 2 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Wrong mindset.

Embrace it when you loose a game. Be happy about the opportunity to learn something new.

too small

kyu atari, never play a gote atari!!! very important and simple rule. This move is a big mistake and it is the loosing move (has to be at C17, after C17 the game would still be even)


still has to be at C17

has to be at C15

If you think before every atari if you have to come back, and then play elsewere if you have to defend indeed, you will gain several stones in strength at once

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are playable for white, the atari at c is a big, big mistake.


good:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

good:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

unthinkable :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gomoto wrote:If you think before every atari if you have to come back, and then play elsewere if you have to defend indeed, you will gain several stones in strength at once

The teacher In-seong Hwang has a nice three-item checklist for identifying when an atari is likely to be bad (though of course it may not be original to him):

• If you're not going to capture the stone you are putting in atari
• If there are multiple plausible directions to give atari from
• If you're going to have to come back and fix afterwards (this is Gomoto's principle)

Of course none of these means outright that it's a bad atari (for one thing, many nice forcing sequences such as squeezes don't capture), but it's a nice list to be able to check in your head to see if it induces second thoughts.

Gomoto wrote:

$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are playable for white, the atari at c is a big, big mistake.

How about d ? Shift it one line over: http://www.alphago-games.com/view/event ... 18/move/14
(this atari was rather surprising to give up the corner, and not fight the ko, a key point is it leads to overconcentration of existing black stones on the board; the basic idea is if you solidly connect then Black can capture the outside stone in a ladder, but if you atari and they extend then when you connect there's no ladder).

Go is hard

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O X X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O b . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

An additional stone on the left side would make d a viable play. In the alpha go game a play at d (i.e. the variation started) is not gote because of the additional stone on the side. Go is indeed a hard game, but there are some rules of engagement that help a lot. I am sure Go gets incredible hard at 4 Dan EGF, but at my strength simple rules help quite a bit

Gomoto wrote:I am sure Go gets incredible hard at 4 Dan EGF, but at my strength simple rules help quite a bit

enough to win about half the time, right? :-p

Hmmm. Is you opponent Japanese? His name spelled backwards is matuyanagi, which spells two trees, matu and yanagi, pine and willow.

I'm quite a few stones weaker than 4 dan, and Go is still a hard game for me.

dfan wrote:

Gomoto wrote:If you think before every atari if you have to come back, and then play elsewere if you have to defend indeed, you will gain several stones in strength at once

The teacher In-seong Hwang has a nice three-item checklist for identifying when an atari is likely to be bad (though of course it may not be original to him):

• If you're not going to capture the stone you are putting in atari
• If there are multiple plausible directions to give atari from
• If you're going to have to come back and fix afterwards (this is Gomoto's principle)

Of course none of these means outright that it's a bad atari (for one thing, many nice forcing sequences such as squeezes don't capture), but it's a nice list to be able to check in your head to see if it induces second thoughts.

Interesting.
Thanks.

Gomoto wrote:Wrong mindset.

Embrace it when you loose a game. Be happy about the opportunity to learn something new.

That is always my outlook a couple of hours after. Right after a game I'm usually disappointed if I played badly. (don't get me wrong, I am a person that's fine with losing, but I am rather hard of myself and when I feel I played poorly, I'll beat myself up over it, whether I lost OR won the game makes no difference here. I sometimes feel bad about winning a game and good when I lost. It's just how I played)

Biggest thing I "learned" (AGAIN) from this game is that I can't expect to play Go and not read. I have this nasty habbit of playing blitz games (online) even when the clock is not blitz.