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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #41 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:59 pm 
Honinbo

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I am glad that you are having a good time playing chess. More power to you! :rambo:

daal wrote:
Go . . . is also burdened with the demand for extraordinary patience and prolonged concentration. Neither of these are my strong suit. With chess, you don't necessarily need to be patient. If you want, you can start throwing your weight around practically from the get go. I've been mostly playing chess on chess.com's "rapid" setting, which is 15 mins each, so games last anywhere from a few minutes to about half an hour. This is fine for me. By the time my concentration lapses, the game is already over.


Bruce Wilcox used to advocate playing a game of go in 15 minutes. Personally speaking, not my cup of tea. :shock: That comes to less than 4 sec. per move, on average. That's quick, but not a killer pace. What do you think of his idea?

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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #42 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:06 am 
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@daal: reasons for being angry after losing a go game may include

  • Feeling that you wasted your time. You have invested (say) 4000 hours in go, but made mistakes that you could have avoided after (say) 400 hours of study and practice.
  • "Midlife crisis", fear of intellectual decline.
  • You think that, overall, you are smarter than average, so you can't accept to be just average in go.

I don't know if these reasons apply to you, since I only know you through this forum so my impressions may be totally wrong, but if they are not, then I don't see why the same frustrations will not appear later with more chess practice. Well, anyway, go or chess are leisure activities, so should be discontinued if they bring more pain than joy. Maybe you will want to come back to go later.

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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #43 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:38 am 
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dfan wrote:
Welcome to the chess world! It is pretty fun too. I keep meaning to write a long article about the differences between go and chess at some point.
Thanks! I think that would be an interesting read.
dfan wrote:
By the way, this may sound pretty stupid, but one method of reducing game-playing stress that has worked really well for me is to force myself to smile as I play. It reminds me that I should be enjoying myself. :)
It might work, but it seems that if you think you should be enjoying yourself, you probably aren't. ;-)
Bill Spight wrote:
I am glad that you are having a good time playing chess. More power to you! :rambo:
Thank you. Much appreciated!

Bill Spight wrote:
Bruce Wilcox used to advocate playing a game of go in 15 minutes. Personally speaking, not my cup of tea. :shock: That comes to less than 4 sec. per move, on average. That's quick, but not a killer pace. What do you think of his idea?
About a year ago, I spent a few months only playing Canadian blitz - 1 + 25 moves/3 mins, which is not quite as fast, but still pretty fast, with games lasting typically about 20 mins or so. For a while I enjoyed it, but then I got tired of it. I did find the games less stressful and the losses less painful, but after a while, also less interesting, so I stopped.

I think I have always found go games to be stressful and the losses painful. I don't feel that way about chess, so it's not just a matter of me being a beginner. I think it might have to do with having the feeling of being or not being able to make sense of what is going on. I have long struggled with the fact that in most situations in a go game, it is extremely difficult to come up with a clear and correct justification for a move. One is stuck juggling principles whose priorities are undefined, reading out lines of play and then trying to determine based on juggling more principles whether the result is good or not. Aside from the first few moves, my feeling is that pretty much every move I make is sub-optimal. In the last chess game I played, Stockfish thought 40% of the time, I made the best move. Of the 31 moves I made, it considered 20 of them excellent. Either by sheer luck or by doing what makes sense to me as a beginner, I can apparently play a good chess move fairly often. If a go computer were able to comment in a similar fashion, my guess is that out of 200 moves, at most 5% would be the best, and perhaps 10 or 20 could be considered excellent. Apparently some chess principles are easier to grasp than go ones. Less stress.

jlt wrote:
@daal: reasons for being angry after losing a go game may include

  • Feeling that you wasted your time. You have invested (say) 4000 hours in go, but made mistakes that you could have avoided after (say) 400 hours of study and practice.
  • "Midlife crisis", fear of intellectual decline.
  • You think that, overall, you are smarter than average, so you can't accept to be just average in go.

I don't know if these reasons apply to you, since I only know you through this forum so my impressions may be totally wrong, but if they are not, then I don't see why the same frustrations will not appear later with more chess practice. Well, anyway, go or chess are leisure activities, so should be discontinued if they bring more pain than joy. Maybe you will want to come back to go later.


Some interesting theories. I do get angry with myself when I make a move that I know better than to have made, but I don't think that the reason is that I feel that I have wasted time, but rather because I lost concentration, I was too impulsive, or I dropped the ball while juggling principles. In other words, I don't feel bad about having tried to learn how to play go, I feel bad that my personal qualities prevent me from being a better go player. As to fighting intellectual decline, I see go as more of a help than a hinderance. I am a bit conceited, so your last reason might have some merit. I find it fairly frustrating that after so many years of playing and studying, I still feel clueless so much of the time. I don't think this really applies to chess. What you are trying to accomplish is fairly clear. You want to get an advantage that puts you in a better position to checkmate your opponent. What are you trying to accomplish with a go move. Can you answer that in less than one book?

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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #44 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:58 am 
Honinbo

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daal wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish with a go move. Can you answer that in less than one book?


Efficiency. :cool: :D

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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #45 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:28 pm 
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daal wrote:
I find it fairly frustrating that after so many years of playing and studying, I still feel clueless so much of the time. I don't think this really applies to chess. What you are trying to accomplish is fairly clear. You want to get an advantage that puts you in a better position to checkmate your opponent. What are you trying to accomplish with a go move. Can you answer that in less than one book?


I have played too little chess to have an educated opinion, but my impression is that
  • In both games, there are some definite goals: capture stones/capture pieces for instance.
  • On the other hand, positional judgement is difficult, and probably more difficult in go than in chess since the board is larger, but I am not convinced that all chess moves can be explained in less than one book.

Personally I am a bit like you, especially during the opening or early midgame (of go), I don't always know where to play. I read the book "Get strong at the opening", but I was far from understanding all answers (and anyway, I guess that some answers would nowadays be considered as wrong by strong bots). On the other hand, in my games against kyu players of various levels, the outcome of the game is almost never determined by the opening or by fancy strategies, but by fighting/life and death skill, both opponents typically make several big mistakes during a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Pawn to the dark side
Post #46 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:52 pm 
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jlt wrote:
Personally I am a bit like you, especially during the opening or early midgame (of go), I don't always know where to play. I read the book "Get strong at the opening", but I was far from understanding all answers (and anyway, I guess that some answers would nowadays be considered as wrong by strong bots). On the other hand, in my games against kyu players of various levels, the outcome of the game is almost never determined by the opening or by fancy strategies, but by fighting/life and death skill, both opponents typically make several big mistakes during a game.


Quote:
During the opening or early midgame (of go), I don't always know where to play. . . . Therefore, in my games against kyu players of various levels, the outcome of the game is almost never determined by the opening or by fancy strategies, but by fighting/life and death skill.


Fixed that for you. ;)

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