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 Post subject: joseki mistake
Post #1 Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:06 am 
Dies in gote

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Came across this joseki in a game recently and my opponent played black 8. By most accounts this is a mistake and I can see this it's a classic, amateur "play the atari just cause it's there" but I wondered what the refutation would be? Is it simply a case of black playing a bad atari is punishment enough?

According to Waltheri this has been played in precisely zero pro-games, so I presume the fact that it's bad should just be self evident :razz:

In addition black then pushed at 10, given the mistake of 8 seems to be generally followed up by the marked tigers mouth, 10 seemed a mistake that had to be punished more actively

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . 3 T . 6 5 1 . . |
$$ . . . 8 7 4 . . . |
$$ . . . 0 9 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


This was the continuation when I cut, black protected at the marked point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 0 9 1 . . . . |
$$ . . 8 7 X . . . . |
$$ . O 6 1 X O O . . |
$$ . T . X O X . . . |
$$ . . . X O 3 5 . . |
$$ . . . . 2 4 . . . |[/go]


In the end black got good thickness, although left a cut behind, and white got sente plus a sizeable corner. This was a 2 stone game so the thickness worked well, but in an even game I feel like white got a much better deal here. Do people disagree, should have done something other than cut?

Penny for your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: joseki mistake
Post #2 Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:35 am 
Judan

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Only move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . O . . X O O . . |
$$ . . . X O X . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . |[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Struttnoddy
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 Post subject: Re: joseki mistake
Post #3 Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 6:06 am 
Dies in gote

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Good point, well made ;-)

Changing the move order a bit makes this painfully obvious. If I want to play 4 when black kicks, I should just exchange 5 for 6 as I would have done anyway, cutting clearly gives black too much. Funny how sometimes all it takes is a small diagram and two words to make something that seemed obscure at the time suddenly so obvious :razz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . O 3 . X O O . . |
$$ . 4 . 1 O X . . . |
$$ . . . 5 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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