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What do you think about using an AI to help you play online and why?
It's totally wrong, even if honest about it 9%  9%  [ 2 ]
It's ok if you use a separate account that clearly says using AI (in username or user info, or tell opponent before game) 64%  64%  [ 14 ]
It's ok on a separate account, but you don't need to tell the opponent 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
It's ok if I'm not just copying the bot moves but thinking myself and studying 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Use AI online is ok 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other (please specify in comment) 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 22
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 Post subject: Poll on using AI online
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:56 pm 
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I'd like to know what people think about using AI to play Go online (e.g. KGS, Tygem). Please feel free to put your reasons in a comment.

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Post #2 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:55 pm 
Judan
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Hi CherryBlossom,

I picked "OK if you make it clear to your opponents,"
but all the options are not strictly independent of one another;
there are some overlaps.

Option 2 is almost the same as a bot offering a game.
You're basically a relayer between the bot and your (human) opponent.
With occasional "tweaks" ( plus misclicks, etc. ) from your wetware brain.

Option 3: if you create a separate, "anonymous" account and you use a bot --
well, clearly it's a problem if there are some prizes involved ( tourney, etc. ). However, if you only do this not for any prizes,
then again, the situation is similar to a bot offering a game.
Say this anonymous account makes it to 10d --
well, then you need not say anything:
everyone will figure out it's probably a bot. :)

Chess has quite a few years' head start in these discussions.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:13 pm 
Judan
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Using a bot to play online is okay with me if
1) You do it consistently. ( No playing sometimes with it and sometimes without )
2) You do not enter human-only tournaments

When I play online I don't really care what is on the other side: a bot, a human, or a combination - just as long as it plays with the same strength all the time, and thus has a reasonably accurate rating.

A corollary is this: I don't care if you play drunk. But you should be equally sloshed every time you play. Playing sometimes drunk and sometimes sober is as unethical as using a bot.

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The rise of go-playing bots may force us to regard go once again as a game that is played for fun.
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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:26 pm 
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What can someone gain by using the AI during the game and not after it?

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:35 pm 
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I voted for option 2, but I suppose Aja Huang did 3 as Master/Magister (at least initially, later opponents knew what it was) and I was okay with that (but maybe the pros he beat up weren't!) :) .


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Post #6 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:48 pm 
Judan
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Quote:
What can someone gain by using the AI during the game and not after it?
Dopamine.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #7 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
A corollary is this: I don't care if you play drunk. But you should be equally sloshed every time you play. Playing sometimes drunk and sometimes sober is as unethical as using a bot.

I use separate accounts. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:59 am 
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I picked 3, with the caveat that I think you shouldn't act human. If you start chatting, talking about yourself, etc, I think you've crossed the line to pretending that it's you. The opponent should be able to wonder "is this a bot?"

I can't decide if this is a silly opinion or not.

As for Joaz's comments about playing drunk, it's not clear that two beers has a great effect on performance than playing while very tired, or upset, or distracted.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:02 am 
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I am serious, what is the educational value of using AI during the game? I am assuming the only reason someone does this is to improve and not just cheat, or experiment or have fun or whatever.
The only reasons i can think of can be achieved by analysis with the AI after the game. On top of that i can think of at least a couple of reasons why doing so might impact your overall game negatively.
So, unless someone convinces me that using AI during the game will make me a better player, i see no reason to do so and i'm strongly against it in games that matter. In casual ones, i don't really mind if my opponent uses it.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:36 am 
Judan

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I didn't vote, because using AI would not be any fun for me. And for casual online play I would not care what my opponent did.

That said, when I learned go it was common practice among amateurs to allow take backs. I did not take moves back myself, because I felt that doing so would hinder my learning. But I liked the relaxed atmosphere of those games. Nobody took themselves too seriously. Also, games were more fun when a blunder did not suddenly end the game. :) I would actually welcome it if my opponent used AI to avoid blunders. I would want to know, though.

dsatkas wrote:
I am serious, what is the educational value of using AI during the game?


Checking your moves with AI in real time, whether you played the AI move or not, could be an educational benefit by providing immediate feedback. The immediacy makes it more effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #11 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:09 am 
Judan
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Bots will give you answers.

dsatkas wrote:
...what is the educational value of using AI during the game? ...

Learning to ask better questions.

See https://jods.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/issue3-case

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The rise of go-playing bots may force us to regard go once again as a game that is played for fun.
Computers may thus remind us what it really means to be human.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #12 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:33 pm 
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During the actual game, you can't spend so much time as offline to check variations. In my case, even if i played the suggested moves, i would still have to analyze offline the different outcomes as i usually do. The amount of time i spent on a single game is approximately 30 min. and obviously i couldn't do that during the game.

But, my main concern is that playing even semi-blindly computer moves makes you dull, cultivates bad habits, discourages reading and so much more. I have seen this happen in chess with people trusting engines and becoming basically slaves. Also, most of the times in chess computer moves are not "human" and you gain nothing by trying to copy without deep understanding. I suspect something similar might be true for go. Also, some times i have noticed leela says a move is good, but after some depth it changes her mind.

In any case, i am not convinced that using AI during the game can make you a better player. Even if it did, i wouldn't use it as a matter of principle.

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 Post subject: Re: Poll on using AI online
Post #13 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:23 am 
Tengen

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dsatkas wrote:
I am serious, what is the educational value of using AI during the game?
Have we reached the point where we're meeting people on the boards who haven't seen Hikaru No Go?

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