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L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

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L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:25 am
by Magicwand
EVERYONE IS SOLVING PROBLEMS TOO EASYLY. NOW TRY THIS.
THIS IS RATED 1~4K BUT I THINK IT IS MUCH HARDER THAN THAT.
BLACK TO PLAY
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:41 am
by tchan001
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 6 O 7 . . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 5 . 3 . 1 4 2 |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


hm, I think I'm solving this for a 19x19 board where the right side is further out

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:50 am
by flOvermind
tchan001 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 6 O 7 . . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 5 . 3 . 1 4 2 |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


hm, I think I'm solving this for a 19x19 board where the right side is further out


Even with a bigger board, I don't see why white should play :w2:. With :w2: at or one point right of :b7:, black still can't escape, and white lives in sente.

As for a solution, I haven't found anything that definitely kills white yet ;)

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:33 am
by tchan001
It's a "Black to play" problem. Meaning it's not necessarily Black to kill. The solution I propose is to make sure Black lives. The solution I played was assuming W tried his hardest to stop Black from living after the first move.

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:11 am
by Magicwand
tchan001 wrote:
It's a "Black to play" problem. Meaning it's not necessarily Black to kill. The solution I propose is to make sure Black lives. The solution I played was assuming W tried his hardest to stop Black from living after the first move.

fyi, object is to live unconditionally.
this is ko. can do better than ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 4 5 1 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:53 am
by nagano
Good one. I think this is it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 4 5 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 2 1 . 6 7 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 2 3 . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 4 1 . . . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 4 O 8 2 5 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 1 6 7 . 9 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 5 O . 2 . 7 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 1 4 . 8 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:00 am
by Marcus
I think I got it. Someone correct me, if I'm wrong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 4 O 8 2 5 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 1 6 7 . 9 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 5 O . 2 . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 1 4 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O 6 O 2 3 . 4 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 5 1 7 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 2 3 . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 4 1 6 7 . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


EDIT: Nagano seems to have the same solution.

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:10 am
by topazg
@magicwand:

For what it is worth, that's no ko :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 7 . 4 5 1 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:41 am
by Marcus
topazg wrote:@magicwand:

For what it is worth, that's no ko :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 7 . 4 5 1 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


That sequence makes me smile. :D Nice!

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:51 am
by Magicwand
topazg wrote:@magicwand:

For what it is worth, that's no ko :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 7 . 4 5 1 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

good catch. now it is ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . 4 . . 1 . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:19 am
by mithra
topazg wrote:@magicwand:

For what it is worth, that's no ko :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 7 . 4 5 1 6 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

But W can better directly start the ko at move 4.

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:46 am
by Chew Terr
This problem seems solvable, so I must be missing something. =D After this attempt, I looked back and no one has my solution, which is another bad sign~
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 4 6 7 2 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 5 1 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 4 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 3 2 4 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:53 am
by Marcus
Chew Terr wrote:This problem seems solvable, so I must be missing something. =D After this attempt, I looked back and no one has my solution, which is another bad sign~
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 4 6 7 2 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . 3 5 1 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O 4 2 3 . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . 3 2 4 X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 1 . . 5 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Here's the line I think you're missing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . 2 1 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


White can force ko.

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:55 am
by Chew Terr
Right, thanks, Marcus!

Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (4K~1K) problem #201

Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:19 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Marcus posted the variations
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , X O O O X , X O . |
$$ | . . O X X O . O X X X O . |
$$ | . O . X O . O . . . . X O |
$$ | . . . X O . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

(Assuming I'm right) I didn't think the problem was that hard, but it may have helped that at first I thought it was "Black to kill" before I realized that black only had one eye himself.
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