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 Post subject: How to punish?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:35 am 
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I just played a ridiculous game. Why ridiculous? Because I've failed twice to punish an opponent for not finishing a joseki.

First time is when black plays :b9:
How do I punish in the lower right? I was thinking M3, O5, O4, M4, approach the left corner? I wasn't sure so I decided to leave it for a while.

Then black plays :b15:
I was thinking E13, C11, C12, C6 (though he'll pincer and fix). Since I didn't know for certain, I decided to leave it for now.

:w32: is a weak way and I help black fix his shape.
By the time black plays :b45: He's fixed both his defects and I didn't profit at all from them.

So disappointing. My ability to fight remains so weak, as you also see further in the game. This is so disappointing.


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Post #2 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:46 am 
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... punish ... not finished joseki ...

wrong mindset

just look for the biggest move on the board every time it is your turn

(Let me uncover it for you: There are no joseki in a real game, joseki are only for remembering some nice shapes if you are not playing right now, in game many times there are bigger moves on the board than continuing the "joseki" ;-) )


consider 3-3 invasion C3 or R17 instead of move :w8:

:w8: is not sente

:w10: has to be at F16 or F17

:w32: is not a bad move, but M3 is the move to reach for in this shape

You have a winning board up to :w90:

:w92: is a big mistake and should be at L9

Move white 114 is much too small, now black is leading


You game was not ridiculous. It is just your late game/endgame that is not up to par. You need to develop a feel for the size/value of the moves. (Again not only think "defend" but look for the biggest move on the board and develop a feel for the move values)

play tit for tat instead of defend


Last edited by Gomoto on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:06 am, edited 12 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #3 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:48 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
... punish ... not finished joseki ...

wrong mindset

just look for the biggest move on the board every time it is your turn


Attacking a weak group is worth a lot and may just be the biggest move on the board.
So, yes, I do want to know how to attack an unfinished shape :)

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Post #4 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:51 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
I just played a ridiculous game. Why ridiculous? Because I've failed twice to punish an opponent for not finishing a joseki.

First time is when black plays :b9:
How do I punish in the lower right? I was thinking M3, O5, O4, M4, approach the left corner? I wasn't sure so I decided to leave it for a while.
First of all, I don't think Black's tenuki is that unreasonable. It's the opening; his :b9: is a big move too.

I would just play M3, O5, J3. You are strong on both sides and Black doesn't have a base. Then he'll probably double pincer in the upper left. It's a game.

Quote:
Then black plays :b15:
Again, this is a pretty big point and I don't think it's that unreasonable.

Quote:
I was thinking E13, C11, C12, C6 (though he'll pincer and fix). Since I didn't know for certain, I decided to leave it for now.
I think leaving it for now is okay too. Honestly I would probably play M3 now.[/quote]

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #5 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:50 am 
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dfan wrote:
First of all, I don't think Black's tenuki is that unreasonable. It's the opening; his :b9: is a big move too.

I would just play M3, O5, J3. You are strong on both sides and Black doesn't have a base. Then he'll probably double pincer in the upper left. It's a game.


Okay thanks!
I guess it "pissed me off" that he didn't "finish joseki" two times and I had no way of getting my advantage over the local situation. Although in the bottom right corner I guess the influence was a nice compensation.

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #6 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:57 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
... punish ... not finished joseki ...

wrong mindset

just look for the biggest move on the board every time it is your turn

(Let me uncover it for you: There are no joseki in a real game, joseki are only for remembering some nice shapes if you are not playing right now, in game many times there are bigger moves on the board than continuing the "joseki" ;-) )



I understand.
...that I don't understand Go :)


Actually very insightful. I had a wrong mindset.

Gomoto wrote:
consider 3-3 invasion C3 or R17 instead of move :w8:

:w8: is not sente

:w10: has to be at F16 or F17

:w32: is not a bad move, but M3 is the move to reach for in this shape

You have a winning board up to :w90:

:w92: is a big mistake and should be at L9

Move white 114 is much too small, now black is leading


You game was not ridiculous. It is just your late game/endgame that is not up to par. You need to develop a feel for the size/value of the moves. (Again not only think "defend" but look for the biggest move on the board and develop a feel for the move values)

play tit for tat instead of defend


Thanks for these extra comments. I thought :w92: was a clever move, forcing him to connect. I guess it wasn't. I don't quite see why L9 would be better, though.

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Post #7 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:00 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
I just played a ridiculous game. Why ridiculous? Because I've failed twice to punish an opponent for not finishing a joseki.

First time is when black plays :b9:
How do I punish in the lower right? I was thinking M3, O5, O4, M4, approach the left corner? I wasn't sure so I decided to leave it for a while.

Then black plays :b15:
I was thinking E13, C11, C12, C6 (though he'll pincer and fix). Since I didn't know for certain, I decided to leave it for now.

:w32: is a weak way and I help black fix his shape.
By the time black plays :b45: He's fixed both his defects and I didn't profit at all from them.

So disappointing. My ability to fight remains so weak, as you also see further in the game. This is so disappointing.



I would say, instead of punishing, how can I take advantage. In fact there might not be a simple way to take advantage because Black might have taken points bigger than finishing the joseki is. Anyhow, think about what finishing the joseki does for Black and what preventing finishing it does for White. In the lower right corner if Black had finished the joseki his group would be very solid. Because there is a White stone on the 3-3 point a White pincer on the third line, one space below where White played, would make Black's group a weak group without a base so it will have to run out. White may be able to harass the running group and make territory, perhaps enlarging White's territory in the upper right side.

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #8 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:05 pm 
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How to punish :b9:? The usual punishment is to tenuki. Your actual play was reasonable. I might have tried a pincer at :w16:.

How to punish :b15: Again, tenuki is usual. The three Black stones are in pretty good shape, so I would not call this a failure to complete a joseki. Remember my proverb:
Bill Spight wrote:
Tenuki is always an option.
:D

:w32: I would prefer a pincer.

:w38: I would prefer the wedge at C-08.

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Let's see... You want to punish Black in the lower right and the upper left so you play 16 in... the upper right?! :D As a result, Black had time to go back and fix things up. Not sure how else you expected that to go. :scratch:

I think the biggest issue is this recurring, "I wasn't sure so I decided to leave it for a while." BTW, I suffer from the same ailment in a big way! Any advice I might give you will have failed the test of time for me! :blackeye:

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #10 Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:06 pm 
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I think you are being too pessimistic in your evaluations. Your play in the opening was fine. After you punished the B mistake in the upper right, you had a won game. Your play in the lower right was also fine.

After that, you slowly let B back into the game with some slack plays. For example, P14 is great shape but totally unnecessary, as there is no cutting point. Pushing with N15 forces B to secure his group with territory; instead you could cut at N17 or invade at L17 for profit. Similarly, P12 strenghthens the strongest group on the board and forces B to defend the weakest group on the board with territory. S8 is the probably the toughest move here.

Your play on the bottom was good. Giving B territory here is fine, as you get equal territory in the center, and the game is simplified. You are still winning.

O10 was a big mistake, leaving a serious cut at P8 which neither side noticed.

The cut at H12 started a dangerous fight. B played better around here and finally pulled ahead. Pushing at H10 instead looks like it keeps you safely in the lead.

The cut at N17 was also big, and ignored by both sides. You eventually did cut here, but did not continue playing, even though the cut worked. Please play it out and verify that W has a big capture.

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:41 am 
Judan
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There is no end to josekis, so you should stop playing joseki.

Err..let me rephrase that. Josekis never end. Starting them is okay, but don't try to finish them. When playing a joseki, one of your goals should be to stop playing that joseki.

They just create an environment where moves become worth less. Try to tenuki before your opponent does

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 Post subject: Re: How to punish?
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:21 am 
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@gowan
Excellent point. Yes. Punishing is a wrong mentality. Though taking advantage from sheer number of stones in the area is possible.

@Bill
Isn't :w32: a pincer? Or only if on 3rd line?

@ez4u
Oddly enough, I heard a dan-player saying it's mostly wise to leave a situation you're not certain about, so you have time to think it over more. But, of course, that leaves the possibility of the opportunity no longer being there to return to :lol:

@mitsun
Very interesting analysis. You might be spot on about me being too negative about my play. I need to work on that as well.

@joaz
Interesting take on joseki. Though what I really meant was, how to punish black for not making a base for himself? It wasn't necessarily the unfinished joseki, rather the group of weak stones laying there, next to my stronger group.

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Post #13 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:39 am 
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LZ choice for :b9: is C14 or F17. So black tenuki is not a mistake for LZ


This post by Tryss was liked by: Bill Spight
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Post #14 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
@Bill
Isn't :w32: a pincer? Or only if on 3rd line?

I suppose it is, but it felt more like a reducing play to me. But yes, my preference would have been a two space pincer on the third line.

Ian Butler wrote:
@ez4u
Oddly enough, I heard a dan-player saying it's mostly wise to leave a situation you're not certain about, so you have time to think it over more. But, of course, that leaves the possibility of the opportunity no longer being there to return to :lol:


Back in the 1990s I coined the saying,
Bill Spight wrote:
When in doubt, tenuki.

as a joke. But later I ran across the actual Japanese go proverb,
Go Proverb wrote:
When you don't know where to play, play somewhere else.

The point of the actual proverb is that you may have local options that are not urgent, and that playing elsewhere may eventually make one or more options better than others.

When I was first learning go, a pincer against the Black group in the bottom right was generally considered urgent, but not more urgent than replying in the top left.

A pincer against the three stones on the left side was considered big, but not particularly urgent. AlphaGo has indicated that it is even less urgent than generally considered.

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