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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #61 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Having looked at your recent game, I would not call your play timid. But I think it does lack enterprise. :)


I can agree with that. Any thoughts on what moves I should try to make to be more enterprising?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #62 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:58 pm 
Judan

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BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Having looked at your recent game, I would not call your play timid. But I think it does lack enterprise. :)


I can agree with that. Any thoughts on what moves I should try to make to be more enterprising?


Sure. And some of this reflects what I have learned from AlphaGo.

Let's start with pincers. AlphaGo pincered about half as much as human pros. (And human pros, according to John Fairbairn, think that amateurs are too aggressive, in the main. So amateurs probably pincer more than pros.)

The flip side of that is that you don't have to worry (much) about getting pincered. You don't have to worry about a double approach to a star point, either. That's why I recommended playing in the open corner with :b5: in your recent game. If you are going to freely allow pincers and double approaches to take big points, you have to be willing to be attacked. In this context, taking a big point and allowing an attack is one way to be enterprising. :)

So when does AlphaGo play a pincer? Many, if not most of AlphaGo's pincers occur when AlphaGo has bolstered the stone being approached. Consider a normal pincer joseki. In response to the pincer the pincered stone often jumps out. Then the opponent replies on one side, and then the pincered stone puts some pressure on the stone on the other side, by a counterpincer or other play. In vague, verbal terms we have the sequence, corner play, approach, pincer, jump, reinforce one side, put pressure on the other side. We may think of the jump as setting up a miai. (Edit: I don't mean, however, that after the jump and the reply by the opponent that you can't tenuki.) For many AlphaGo pincers the sequence is this: corner play, approach, reply (reinforcing the corner stone), tenuki, pincer. Now a jump will not set up a miai. So the pincer is stronger. :)

In your game you responded with keima to the :w4: approach. White then approached from the other side. White should have taken the open corner, but the second approach is joseki. You responded by playing a keima towards the center. This also set up a miai by bolstering your corner stones. White extended on the right side. IMO, the time was ripe to pincer the approach stone on the bottom side. The pincer would be even stronger than the usual AlphaGo pincer because your three corner stones were quite strong. To allow White to play both sides of the miai was, IMO, not so good. (Leela Zero may disagree, OC. ;))

Later in the game, :b33:, you had built up more strength in the center and had the opportunity to play a pincer on the right side against a single White approach stone towards the top and at the same time against a weak two stone group towards the bottom. White would have been very busy trying to defend his stones. This was a golden opportunity for Black. The right side was urgent.:)

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #63 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:54 am 
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Tami wrote:
I also enjoy watching Dwyrin's videos, usually, but I think it's worth remembering that he tends to play much weaker opponents in many of these.


Yeah, but that's the point of his videos: as a stronger player, he beats weaker players (1d or so) by playing in a more basic fashion than he would do at full strength, showing that you can be 1d by playing quite mundane moves only ...

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It can be hard to tell for sure whether he beats the opponent because he follows basic principles, or simply because he knows a great deal more about go.


... but indeed I find his videos deceiving. At several occasions he stops playing intuitively and goes "doot, doot, doot ..." reading a couple of moves, and then often plays a not so intuitive move (or does but after calculating). Both the depth of the reading and (more importantly) the timing are aspects of his full strength that are deceptively added to the autopilot playing basic moves. In other words, he wins by playing basic moves except if it doesn't work.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #64 Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:03 am 
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Tami wrote:

I wanted to address a point Abssyinica raised. It's understandable to feel nervous, especially if playing go is something you want to do well. The School of Life did a good video on Youtube about mastery a few years back. The main point is that we tend only to see very skilful practitioners as they are now: we don't get to see all of the many, many discarded drafts that they had to produce before composing a Ninth Symphony or painting a Mona Lisa. So, if you want to get good at go, don't you just have to accept that making mistakes and losing a lot of really crummy games is just part of the process? If I could be certain that it would help me to make a high dan rank, then I'd gladly lose another 10,000 games! Wasn't it Bill who said that he's 5d now, so who cares how many games he lost before that?

As for feeling nervous: yes, it can be unpleasant. You have to learn to deal with it. Play with your head and not your heart. Emotions tend to settle down if one makes a determined effort to stay objective; and enjoyment comes back.


You know, no matter how many times I've heard or tried to say this to myself, it hardly ever helps. (Probably because I care too much in the momentif I lose) I don't know if I can force myself to actually think that way instead of just fake-thinking it. I have been playing a little bit again, but in even my last game where I wasn't thinking about anything before pressing automatch, 50 moves into the game and I can feel my heart beating through my entire chest. I don't know why I'm so anxious like that. There wasn't even a tense capturing race fight or anything. It was just a normal board.

Knotwilg wrote:
Tami wrote:
I also enjoy watching Dwyrin's videos, usually, but I think it's worth remembering that he tends to play much weaker opponents in many of these.


Yeah, but that's the point of his videos: as a stronger player, he beats weaker players (1d or so) by playing in a more basic fashion than he would do at full strength, showing that you can be 1d by playing quite mundane moves only ...


I like to imagine that we kyus just get ourselves in trouble, and playing basics is just sitting and waiting while we get the rope to hang ourselves with.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #65 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:16 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
50 moves into the game and I can feel my heart beating through my entire chest. I don't know why I'm so anxious like that. There wasn't even a tense capturing race fight or anything. It was just a normal board.


Do unrated games have the same effect on you?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #66 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:11 am 
Judan

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Tami wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
Also, you mentioned basic proverbs. I think people in this range are probably familiar with them, but we still misapply them regularly. Dwyrin (https://www.youtube.com/user/dwyrin) has a nice series called "Back to Basics" where he tries to demonstrate that it's possible to beat SDK players just by focusing on basic principles and making large moves. In general, I think he's right, but his commentary also makes it clear that the application of basic princples often requires a decent set of complementary skills.


I also enjoy watching Dwyrin's videos, usually, but I think it's worth remembering that he tends to play much weaker opponents in many of these. It can be hard to tell for sure whether he beats the opponent because he follows basic principles, or simply because he knows a great deal more about go.


This got me curious, so I took a look at the first of the Back to Basics series. I got as far as his wondering whether playing hane to an attachment was one of the basics. I could already tell from his list of rules to constrain his play that I have a different view of what's basic. In this regard, my vote goes to Bruce Wilcox. Probably also to Janice Kim, although I have not read her books.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #67 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:13 am 
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jlt wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
50 moves into the game and I can feel my heart beating through my entire chest. I don't know why I'm so anxious like that. There wasn't even a tense capturing race fight or anything. It was just a normal board.


Do unrated games have the same effect on you?


Definitely not. That's why I used to just play free on KGS before I quit.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #68 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
jlt wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
50 moves into the game and I can feel my heart beating through my entire chest. I don't know why I'm so anxious like that. There wasn't even a tense capturing race fight or anything. It was just a normal board.


Do unrated games have the same effect on you?


Definitely not. That's why I used to just play free on KGS before I quit.


Dear Abyssinica,

If unrated games are OK, then, at least for now, play unrated games. Your anxiety in rated games does not mean that you have the wrong kind of personality for go. Anxiety can be overcome. It can even be used to good effect. :)

If you would like to talk more about this, please PM me. :)

Bill

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #69 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:09 am 
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Or you might want to make rated games a "rare" event, and the rest of the time play unrated games (online or on a real-life board) and study go.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #70 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:00 am 
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jlt wrote:
Or you might want to make rated games a "rare" event, and the rest of the time play unrated games (online or on a real-life board) and study go.


This is how it was a while ago, but I felt like it wasa duct-tape solution that didn't adress the actual problems I was having with playing the game. But I've been playing now a few more games so that's good. Losing against a 3k when I should not have because I rushed myself and didn't read. Winning against another. Trying to LEARN what I did wrong.

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Post #71 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:36 am 
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Abyssinica wrote:
Losing against a 3k when I should not have because I rushed myself and didn't read. Winning against another. Trying to LEARN what I did wrong.


Playing a game at 3 kyu level is... something wrong ??

Maybe the anxiety comes from the idea that one has to make progress, has to correct mistakes. There is a moral pressure about things that are done right (playing the good moves) and things that are done wrong (not playing the good moves).

The tradition to review the games after the play is very good. But maybe it can go wrong when it becomes the place to expose what was "done wrong", and when it is mistaken to be a moral judgement : "you ought to play better than that", "you made a mistake", "how can you possibly have played this ?", "you are making no progress".

The review should be the occasion to look at what was nice in the game : "this attack was brillant, I didn't see it coming !". "I let you have the ko because the compensation was enough". "Since I had not enough points, it was the good timing to try an invasion." "I like this shape. Its weaknesses are hard to find"...


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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #72 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Abyssinica wrote:
This is how it was a while ago, but I felt like it was a duct-tape solution that didn't address the actual problems I was having with playing the game. But I've been playing now a few more games so that's good. Losing against a 3k when I should not have because I rushed myself and didn't read. Winning against another. Trying to LEARN what I did wrong.


If you feel you can overcome your anxiety and play only rated games, then of course this is the best solution. Otherwise, I don't think that playing rated games less frequently is a bad solution. Before the existence of internet go, people could only play friendly games at their club, and rated games at tournaments. Even now, some people still never play online, but participate in live tournaments once a month or so, and perhaps study go with the objective of performing well at the next tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing my grip on go
Post #73 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Pio2001 wrote:
Abyssinica wrote:
Losing against a 3k when I should not have because I rushed myself and didn't read. Winning against another. Trying to LEARN what I did wrong.


Playing a game at 3 kyu level is... something wrong ??

Maybe the anxiety comes from the idea that one has to make progress, has to correct mistakes. There is a moral pressure about things that are done right (playing the good moves) and things that are done wrong (not playing the good moves).

The tradition to review the games after the play is very good. But maybe it can go wrong when it becomes the place to expose what was "done wrong", and when it is mistaken to be a moral judgement : "you ought to play better than that", "you made a mistake", "how can you possibly have played this ?", "you are making no progress".

The review should be the occasion to look at what was nice in the game : "this attack was brillant, I didn't see it coming !". "I let you have the ko because the compensation was enough". "Since I had not enough points, it was the good timing to try an invasion." "I like this shape. Its weaknesses are hard to find"...


Those first two paragraphs are how go has been for a long time. :study: You actually captured it almost perfectly.
By 3k I mean I'm finally playing people AT my level, and not hiding behind playing people 1 stone weaker.

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