Life In 19x19

The questions are inside the sgf file. Thanks for your comments in advance. I was white this game.
The link is at http://eidogo.com/#pMDVeJb5.

Quote my post to see how to use sgf tags (it needs either a url to download link of sgf, which for eidogo is http://eidogo.com/sgf/<id without leading #>.sgf, or the sgf content itself).

Thank you @uberdude.

One thing that really jumps out at me in this game is that I think you understand that it is good to keep your opponent's groups weak and separated. That's a good thing to understand. However, I feel like you are over-estimating the strength of your own groups at times. These two moves felt uncomfortable to me:

Move 26: My instinct would have been to play something like A because it reinforces the white stones in the middle left and it starts to limit the options of the black stone. Black has two weak groups, but I think you should also realize that your group in between is also not strong either.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Move 28: I'm not sure that the corner is strong enough to make this pincer work. If the corner were strong, then this move would separate blacks approach stone from the stones on the right. However, if you see the corner as weak, the black stone is now splitting two weak white groups. I'd have played something to reinforce the corner like A. This forces black to extend to the left to prevent the pincer, and then you get sente. A lot of complications that developed in this area would have been eliminated if the corner were secure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Unfortunately, I wasn't entirely sure what to suggest for the rest of the game. It gets complicated quickly with so may weak groups, and I fear that your group in the lower left corner isn't settled even after , but my skills are not strong enough to know for sure.

BlindGroup wrote:... play something like A because it reinforces the white stones in the middle left and it starts to limit the options of the black stone. Black has two weak groups, but I think you should also realize that your group in between is also not strong either.

$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...

I like eksert's choice here. A move at 'a' looks small, and has iffy shape.
Sure, white's two stones on the side are not really strong, but they are stronger than the local black stones. The shoulder hit helps keep one of those stones weak.

If you really want to indulge in the goals behind 'a', this will do it better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I prefer this double 4-4 fuseki for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you play the 3-4 fuseki you have to add a stone add a or b in this fuseki, to enter the right side and approach 4-4 is a mistake:
(If you would have played the double 4-4 fuseki you could consider approaching the upper right from the OUTSIDE or enter 3-3 directly (which would have been my preference))

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This kind of passive play in the middle of the side is not a good move in the fuseki most of the times. It is a mistake in this position. Much better is a play at a,b or c.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move is fine:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b (if you insist on a local play) are good options for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . b . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hi Gomoto,

They are good, the winrates

B15 by black is a mistake, the white answer 86 (turn around in the middle 85)

turn arround in the middle 92

attachment 85

(ELF)

Hi Gomoto,

Thanks.
( I assume 'good' means it's either LZ's top choice or one of its top 3 choices for the given board. )

EdLee wrote:Hi Gomoto,

Thanks.
( I assume 'good' means it's either LZ's top choice or one of its top 3 choices for the given board. )

Without many playouts, you can't count on Leela's third choice, or maybe even the second choice.

Without many playouts, you can't count on Leela's third choice, or maybe even the second choice.

Or not even the first choice ?...

Bill Spight wrote:

EdLee wrote:Hi Gomoto,

Thanks.
( I assume 'good' means it's either LZ's top choice or one of its top 3 choices for the given board. )

Without many playouts, you can't count on Leela's third choice, or maybe even the second choice.

How many playouts 1k is enough generally? I analyze my games with LZ and after 1k generally moves do not change.. Only win percentages change 0.5%-1%.

How many playouts 1k is enough generally?

Interesting question. My understanding is it requires much more advanced hardware during the neural net training phase, but much less hardware requirements afterwards, during the playing ?

eksert wrote:How many playouts 1k is enough generally? I analyze my games with LZ and after 1k generally moves do not change.. Only win percentages change 0.5%-1%.

LZ with 1k playouts is certainly quite strong, but it is incorrect to believe that the moves don't change with more visits. People have done many experiments, and LZ with more playouts beats LZ with fewer playouts consistently. My recollection is that it's a logarithmic sort of relation, meaning that doubling the amount of time searching adds a fixed amount of strength, so you do get diminishing returns after a while (going from 1k to 2k playouts adds about the same amount of strength as going from 100k to 200k).