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 Post subject: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #1 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:12 pm 
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Hi folks,

Just won a game I think I should have lost, but am having trouble identifying any significant mistakes. Any reviews that can identify my slow/bad moves or an overall weakness would be greatly appreciated! No need for a move-by-move analysis, just seeking a general idea of where I went wrong.

My thoughts:

1. Opponent's choice of joseki top left seemed extremely good for my framework. However, I made some mistakes in B23 & B29 which compensated
2. After looking up B55 joseki, I think if white played F3 I would've been in big trouble, but with white's tenuki it worked out well for me.
3. Bottom right was dead for a while & I didn't notice
4. I played a number of sequences in the game (top-left, bottom) that didn't quite work, but I don't think I lost anything for them



Thanks!


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Last edited by derkberklin on Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:37 pm 
Judan

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You can just copy the file as a text and post it between the SGF tags. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #3 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
You can just copy the file as a text and post it between the SGF tags. :)


There we go, thanks Bill!

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #4 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:44 pm 
Judan

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A few thoughts on the opening. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #5 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
A few thoughts on the opening. :)


Awesome. I have never heard the idea of not attaching to sabaki, but it makes a lot of sense. I looked at several variations here, but did not consider K15... I love the idea there. Can definitely see how I could have come out much further ahead through these sequences. Thanks a lot!

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Post #6 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:05 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi derkberklin,
Quote:
never heard the idea of not attaching to sabaki
That's nice. Along those lines to ponder...
- think about how/where you developed these ideas (or habits) to make contact, or to avoid contact, and your experiences with them -- when did they work ? when did they fail ?
- example: in this particular case, what made you play the particular contact move :b21: ?
- longer term goal: free yourself from these 'fixed' ideas about when to make a certain shape (and when to avoid it); rather, look at the exact whole board position and play the best sequence in your evaluation.

- actually, very curious about bot options for :b21: (tenuki ?) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #7 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:49 pm 
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For what it's worth, Leela Zero with ELF weights would have pushed up at K15 instead of J16 (if playing locally, but actually its top move is to tenuki at C3!) I would have done that, too. Even though white played a 5th line shoulder hit, pushing up is still a good direction, IMHO and works with the fourth line stones on the right.

Going after the opening since Bill already covered some important things...

:b51: Good to take sente to get here first.
:b57: Good to notice that :w56: is not a threatening ladder breaker. Black is ahead now, even though white easily reduced the moyo earlier.
:b63: Are you testing your opponent? White is alive here and normally I think the idea is to save it until endgame, when C18 would be typical.
:b77: I like the strike through at R4 rather than invading at R3, in this case. Aside from the life and death problem which you have noted, white is getting some stones facing the center, so I would worry about potentially invading in gote and allowing white to gain more strength on the outside. Black has enough territory already.

Black 155: So the endgame is getting close, but black is very strong in this area as is white. Look for white's thinness, like J8.

Black 167: Too passive.

So white reduced black well, but played some slow moves and allowed black to take the lead. Black spilled a few points in the endgame. Both players of course missed a life and death situation in the lower right, which is worth studying.

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Post #8 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:32 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi derkberklin,
Quote:
never heard the idea of not attaching to sabaki
That's nice. Along those lines to ponder...
- think about how/where you developed these ideas (or habits) to make contact, or to avoid contact, and your experiences with them -- when did they work ? when did they fail ?
- example: in this particular case, what made you play the particular contact move :b21: ?
- longer term goal: free yourself from these 'fixed' ideas about when to make a certain shape (and when to avoid it); rather, look at the exact whole board position and play the best sequence in your evaluation.

- actually, very curious about bot options for :b21: (tenuki ?) :)


Great questions for me to think about, thank you. It is always an interesting exercise determining post-game what mistakes were made due to carelessness, versus misreading or simply bad strategy. In this instance, I think the shoulder-hit had me on auto-pilot, since the sequence is so often a simple crawling-along (and I was eager to take the 4th line territory). This question of when to attach is something I think I will struggle with for a while yet; if anything I avoid attaching more than I should, but in instances where my opponent is playing lightly I probably still attach too much.

Calvin Clark wrote:
For what it's worth, Leela Zero with ELF weights would have pushed up at K15 instead of J16 (if playing locally, but actually its top move is to tenuki at C3!) I would have done that, too. Even though white played a 5th line shoulder hit, pushing up is still a good direction, IMHO and works with the fourth line stones on the right.

Going after the opening since Bill already covered some important things...

:b51: Good to take sente to get here first.
:b57: Good to notice that :w56: is not a threatening ladder breaker. Black is ahead now, even though white easily reduced the moyo earlier.
:b63: Are you testing your opponent? White is alive here and normally I think the idea is to save it until endgame, when C18 would be typical.
:b77: I like the strike through at R4 rather than invading at R3, in this case. Aside from the life and death problem which you have noted, white is getting some stones facing the center, so I would worry about potentially invading in gote and allowing white to gain more strength on the outside. Black has enough territory already.

Black 155: So the endgame is getting close, but black is very strong in this area as is white. Look for white's thinness, like J8.

Black 167: Too passive.

So white reduced black well, but played some slow moves and allowed black to take the lead. Black spilled a few points in the endgame. Both players of course missed a life and death situation in the lower right, which is worth studying.


Thanks for going over all of this for me. Your board assessment is very helpful for me. Regarding :b63:, I was curious if the result of black pushing through C15 would be any different with all of black's cutting points well-protected... evidently it doesn't make much difference. :lol: 155 was very lackluster in retrospect. Good points about the end-game, I think I was playing a little slack & didn't notice white had garnered so much territory in the center until it was a bit too late. In that avenue, R4 instead of R3 would have helped a lot. I will remember that position.


I appreciate all the great advice. I've always just reviewed on my own but glad I reached out for help in this instance, I think I will grow much more because of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:22 am 
Judan
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This post is based on gut feel, not clear analysis, and is more intended as speculation on direction of play and not as a clear statement that another line was better.

In his review, Bill showed that the slide underneath at J16 leads to trouble all too easily when black tries to connect, and seems to get the best result when black finally backs off and plays toward the center. ( It is a high stone, so its natural direction - in the absence of contrary data - should be toward the center )

So I started wondering: why should black provoke white to make more moves that strengthen white and thereby weaken the black left corner? If the K16 stone gets good results by extending toward the center, why not do that immediately?

I would have played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc How to respond to the shoulder hit
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The white invader looks weaker than in other lines, and black is making a large framework on the right side sooner.

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:06 am 
Judan

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I would have played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc How to respond to the shoulder hit
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I would have, too, but I don't think that crawling on the fourth line is bad, and I didn't see a good, quick explanation for :b2:.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It is a high stone, so its natural direction - in the absence of contrary data - should be toward the center.


I like that. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #11 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:44 am 
Judan
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Bill Spight wrote:
...I didn't see a good, quick explanation for :b2:...

Just tell the OP that the K16 stone is screaming "That way! That way! Toward the south!"

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 Post subject: Re: Game Review Request [KGS 5k]
Post #12 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:51 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
why should black provoke white to make more moves that strengthen white and thereby weaken the black left corner? If the K16 stone gets good results by extending toward the center, why not do that immediately?


Huh, excellent point!

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Just tell the OP that the K16 stone is screaming "That way! That way! Toward the south!"


LOL I will consider this in the future. My immediate response was simply "thanks for the 4th line territory, see ya!" I will certainly challenge that thinking in the future... even if 4th line territory is good, sometimes there's something clearly better.

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