Life In 19x19

Are there any plans to allow more AGA players to become professionals?

Also, what are the rules for promotion? The EGf announced their promotion rules in 2017.

I saw somewhere that Ryan Li was listed 2p. Does anybody know when he became 2p and why?

There isn't a lot on this at the main AGA page: http://www.usgo.org/aga-professional-system.

It does say that the tournament is held annually, which doesn't seem correct, but maybe I'm just not paying close attention.

I may ping them for an update.

I saw that page, but as you can see the process seems to have died in 2014...

I´m curious, if you have plans in AGA for more professionals. The last came in 2015, thats 4 years ago. Did the contract with Korean Assoication end(if I remember right, the AGA worked with them together for it). Or is it about changing the system?

Tonight I was talking to one of my friends and he told me that the AGA had "lost its authority" to issue further pro qualifications under threat of a lawsuit. I did not get more info than that and the ones threatening a lawsuit are associated with someone who offered his legal services to the AGA only to be turned away AFAIK.

I propose that the AGA hold a nationwide annual or triannual (every 3 years) tournament, in which the best players in each of the 50 states play in a knockout tournament to determine who will be the national champion. This might currently be more feasible than a pro ranking system.

The AGA doesn't always communicate things that effectively, so I can't rule out that this happened and no one has said anything.

But that's a big story to accept on hearsay.

That does sound like a wild rumor. The AGA is still able to hold professional tournaments. Something like that would be brought up with the Board and has not for the last two years at least. I briefly checked with someone involved with the AGA Professional Program and he has not heard that.

Either way, it's not a good idea to have pro tournaments too often, because we don't have enough strong players that are active in the AGA. I don't know what the perfect formula is, but having tournaments too often will lower the bar.

It's true that having pro tourneys too often would be a bad idea, but having tourneys four years in a row and then having a five year drought without any public explanation just makes this look like an abandoned project.

Since we are talking about the pro tournaments: I rather dislike the way the european pro tournament is held.

The the six rounds, "double elimination" format brings in wonky elements. All vs all and most wins decide seems to produce fairer results. I really dislike the fact that you can lose early and get a second chance but if you lose after round 2 you have no chance to get back in the tournament.

I don't neccessarily object to a yearly pro tournament. The systems needs to be somewhat sustainable, of course, but the systems also has to carry momentum. And I guess momentum is lost when you space pro tournaments too far apart. Strong players who nearly miss out in one pro tournament may also decide to change "careers" when the next chance is years away.

lodestone wrote:It's true that having pro tourneys too often would be a bad idea, but having tourneys four years in a row and then having a five year drought without any public explanation just makes this look like an abandoned project.

True, it could be seen in that way. I feel like we need to get a better idea of what it means to be an American Go Pro in a post-AlphaGo world...

What is the point of a professional system if professionals can't make a living out of go?

Well... I'm not sure making a living only on Go is realistic in the AGA region, nor most of Europe, but it should at least be a good secondary income.

That said, there are several issues, seen from the outside, on the AGA system.

* Growth freeze. Both in personal grades and in number of professionals. Unless I've missed something, there haven't been any new professionals since the first five, four years ago. And you might argue that there are not enough tournaments, but that's circular. Not enough players <--> not enough tournaments. A point of a professional system is to raise the level of options.

* Communication lock. Is there some sort of news embargo or something? We had the Transatlantic last year, which would have been a good moment to announce or explain things. Or slightly after that. I haven't seen the numbers of spectators in those videos since, neither on OGS Euro pro league, nor on Twitch in AGA / EGF videos, but I'm not exhaustive, I might have missed something. That was a lost opportunity, but the persistance of that lack of information is discouraging. If there's been a freeze, there should be an explanation. I don't claim the right to it, mind you (AGA members do have it, though), but it still feels like many opporunities are lost with that silence.

* Ryan Li in the European Go Pro League. Yes, sure, it's not an official event. But...

+ Am I wrong or he is, by far, the most publically active of the AGA pros? Youtube, tournaments, etc.
+ Why does he feel the... "need"? to join a European league?

And I feel that part of it is what I perceive [*] as a certain insularity of the Western associations' pro system. If you limit your events to each association's pros, you have 5 in the AGA [yay!] and an eye-watering seven [wow!] in the EGF. But if you add European pros certified by Asian associations (you know, the guys who've been trailblazing until now), you basically double the number [+]. Then, you can add... 13? more go pros with Asian nationality living in the West.

We go from half a dozen playes in each continent to three dozen in both. That's starting to be a decent number. But only if you add instead of dividing. Sure, for whatever reason some might pass. This happens. But we're talking at least a 5x increase in the pool.

I don't think we're using the resource properly, in general, and most certainly in the case of the AGA.

Take care.

PS: Does anyone know why SL has differing 1p dates and "most recent rank [1p]" dates for the early AGA pros?

[*] Feel, part, perceive... You'll notice I'm not in any way sure about it.

[+] And I would argue we should include Aja Huang as a honorary pro, at the very least, in any pro event in Europe.

I don’t think pros necessarily need to make a living from their title, but it could be helpful to have more pro-only events. Bonus points if pros have incentive to win those events. Then advertise those events in a cool way so lots of people watch.

The transatlantic go thing was a good example, though, that kinda flopped with all of the debate about the dynamics of online time settings.

It’d be good to try something similar again (but lay out the time rules up front ).

Kirby wrote:The transatlantic go thing was a good example, though, that kinda flopped with all of the debate about the dynamics of online time settings.

I slightly disagree. The Nihon kiin has shown, time and again, that controversy can be good for the game. I'm sure there are people with the proper tales at the tip of their fingers. If you want an example from the outside, soccer. Baseball, I think, has it even worse. Discussions on the proper results, penalties... don't harm the popularity.

Where I think it failed was in communication. It came almost out of nowhere, it delayed (in silence) its answers to that controversy, the results of the matches, and the videos, were published late... And then it disappeared, without any mention on the reasons or the requirements to resurface. The production values of those videos was uneven. And I don't mean bad, but there are distinct differences between the first and.the last for which, again, we have no explanation.

I can't even begin to imagine the difficulties of managing such an event... Among other things, again, I wasn't told. But it's difficult to nurture interest in an information vacuum.

Take care.