would you please review my game?
i played as black (5k dgs) against 1k dgs.

I am very interested in the correct handling of white moyo in the bottom. i think i made a huge mistake there.



thank you &
kind regards
otagotasolo

for some reason my sgf is not shown correctly, i will analyze the problem and update the file.
solved.

DeepLeela

Hi, here are my thoughts:

: Looks very slow to me, I don't think you needed to defend there.

This looks like a meaningless forcing move that gives white good shape. The peep is at lot more interesting in my opinion.

Another forcing move I don't understand. This make invading in the bottom more difficult. What are the benefits of it?

I think this move is fine, but if you are not sure how to handle the cap, you can also play the high invasion instead.

I think its to early to pull out this stone

Attach underneath if you want to connect. Sacrifice some stones and try to connect. Getting squeezed like in the game is terrible for black.

Afterwards, you played reasonably well, but your opponent played the better local engame for the most part.

One more important thing: Your turn at S13 is sente against the white corner! I got excited to see that you later played Q18, as that is the correct move to kill.
Playing T14 and then R19 is correct too (nevermind that both of you played away for quite some time)!
But by connecting at Q19, you missed your chance. So here is a nice tsumego: After White 163, how can black kill the corner in the upper right?

I looked at it and then also checked some of my ideas with LZ.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . X O . . |
$$ . O . . X O . . |
$$ . . # . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X b . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This looks a little timid - not pressuring White very much. Note that A or B are your sente, which makes your stones here a little stronger than they look. Also note that LZ wants to play B very often afterwards, for both sides. The idea is clear: seal off the right side as B, or crawl into it and destroy it as W.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . # X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O . X . |
$$ . . O . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------+[/go]

"Don't play close to strong stones". Both your own and White's stones in this area are strong, which makes the area uninteresting. White should not reply locally.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . O
$$ . . O . . . .
$$ O . . 5 4 . .
$$ . . X . 1 O .
$$ . . . 3 2 . .
$$ . . . . . . .
$$--------------[/go]

LZ kind of likes this ko to settle the bottom. It does not seem particularly bothered about winning it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . X
$$ | . . X . . O a O . . X
$$ | . # O O . . b X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]

A fairly large mistake according to LZ. It wants to play A or B instead (here, and for a few moves afterwards), which gives the black stones at the bottom safety while creating weaknesses in the white shape. It's OK with giving up the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ O . . . X O . . |
$$ . O . . X O . . |
$$ O X X . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ . . 2 . O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O . . |
$$ . . O . O X . . |[/go]

After this, the top right corner is a tsumego problem. In a book this would be Black to kill, but maybe in this game Black wants to get a little stronger on the outside. Then again, LZ seems to like just going for it. There are many occasions later in the game where Black is clearly strong enough to attack.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X O . . . X O . . |
$$ O . O . . X O . . |
$$ . O X X . . X O . |
$$ . b . . . . X O . |
$$ . . # a O . X X . |
$$ . . . O X O O . . |
$$ . . . O X X O . . |[/go]

I'd have criticized this as peeping at a cutting point, but LZ actually likes it. But the idea is that after White A, Black should continue at B to get out into the center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$-------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X O . . . X O . . |
$$ O . O . . X O . . |
$$ . O X X . . X O . |
$$ . # O . . . X O . |
$$ . a X O O X X X . |
$$ . . . O X O O . . |
$$ . . . O X X O . . |[/go]

Bad, weakening Black. Your stones are losing liberties, and the plan to make a new heavy group on the other side is bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ | . . O X . . . O .
$$ | . X O X . . . . O
$$ | . . X X . O . . X
$$ | . X . . . b . X X
$$ | . . . X . . O X O
$$ | . a X . . O . O X
$$ | . X O O . . . X X
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------[/go]

LZ thinks you need to answer this - because you actually have a threat to separate these white stones and kill them, starting with B. So playing A is actually sente against these stones.

thank you for your reviews.
i need to digest it now.

regarding tsumego: T18 ?

Hi, and thank you for reviewing this game. I was the white player, erkki, in this game.

All of the previous comments and thoughts looks good and reasonable to me: 32,42,44 jne… I totally missed the tsumego in the upper right corner, I should know better.

I'm wondering what's the main reasons white got the upper hand in this game?
It must be about the handling of white k15 and the blacks invation in the bottom, L3. For me, L3 felt too low invation. I would have preferred L4. But probably L3 is very effective depending on the continuation.
I was anyways pretty happy after that invation even though it took away a possible territory.

Around move 125, I was expecting white to play F5. That would be difficult for white, right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . # X . . |
$$ . . . W O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O . X . |
$$ . . O . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------+[/go]

I like white's local reply. Black is pushing the cart before the horse.
White gets central influence, and is starting to get 6th rank territory.

It is never too early to make a good move.

At move 11, white is so biased toward the lower side that this might actually be the best move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The one-space jump feels quite slow to me ( and not a DL candidate ); the game move two-space jump as played is actually DL's #1 choice, at 70% for B.

Monte Carlo algorithms seem to like lower moves because the decision trees are smaller.

Can you force DL to consider it? If so, what is the result if you max the playouts?

Hi Joaz,

DeepLeela is available to anyone with an OK device and Wifi.
Its functionality is very rudimentary.

I see as almost around damé, thus misplaced.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O O ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I managed to do so.

It is rated around 3% less than the 2 space extension on the right side, which is close to the margin of error. DL has White respond with a peep from the right side, and after Black connects, with a push/descent, which Black hanes. The result is that the jump becomes dame and Black is pressed for eyes, but the White group on the right side is weak.

DL uses Leela.11, so it accepts Black's slide into the bottom right corner. IMO, based upon AlphaGo and other strong bots, is that Black should play the jump attachment instead. The two space extension is vulnerable to White playing against it to extend his bottom side moyo.

Edit: Does Leela.11 prefer low moves because it was trained on current human play?

Edit: Corrected typos.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Hi Bill,

Do you mean this for ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry, Ed. Typo, This is what I had in mind.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Jump attachment instead of slide
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Hi Bill, Thanks. Yea, the pros have also picked up on the 3-4 attach.
The old style slide is now a rare move for the bots.

Ed,
You've got to keep an eye on that computer of yours. It is cheating.
If you let it give white an extra stone, and allow it to move one of white's stones, any black play can be made to look bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Red circles and blue arrow indicate added/moved stones
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O ? ? . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . O W ? X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . C . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR O3 O5}[/go]

The question is: does this move look misplaced?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Board with the correct position restored
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or, assuming that Bill's computer is not slipping extra stones on the board...


Then the question is: does this move look misplaced?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

FWIW, LZ 202 thinks high 2 space extension (which in combo with the slide would get you chided in the past) is very slightly better than low, jump not as good as q5 attachment if you want to push the boundary to lower side as that makes a good shape next, unlike the jump with the peep weakness pointed out. But all these moves are ok, pick whichever you are happier with that reduces the chance of making big mistakes which matter in the future.

Deep Leela suggests this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . O 4 X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Turns out I misread the board. Deep Leela actually prefers the kosumitsuke for .

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife.

Everything with love. Stay safe.