Life In 19x19

This is a win I scored this week in a club game against a player who surprised me with many of their moves. The reason I'm putting up a game I won for review is that in the middle of it both a 1D friend of mine and myself concluded that my position is unsatisfying and I pondered whether I should resign. This on its own probably doesn't make it good enough, but after reviewing the game with Leela, it stated that my position was actually very good and the biggest points it suggested made no sense to me in that moment. I am hoping for some concrete guidance here, because I don't know what to think.


The position above (move 67) is the one where I considered conceding the game. If you look at it, White's potential in the center doesn't seem to amount to much, Black's structure seems strong, killing the bottom group of his is not a matter of question, he has a lot of points of his own. And Leela suggests to start cutting in top right! It feels like if I do, Black will concede the stones on the left and just keep ruining White's potential in the center and on top. For me it stands to reason that Leela's suggestions are not of much use to me, because I don't know which area to prioritize and how to proceed technically with saving or ruining points. But then, what went wrong the most before this moment? How to judge this board and ones like it, where there is shared potential, some (semi-?)threatening weaknesses and the opponent just plays solidly enough?

This may not be what you want to hear:

You have 3 black groups fully enclosed at move 67. Keep surrounding groups and you will watch it pay dividends. Once a group is fully surrounded it has no more impact on the rest of the game. This is a big deal. Meanwhile black feels the urgency to rush into your middle. You cut him, and smash him into your strength. Good work!

Keep surrounding groups!

At move 46, E5 seemed unnecessarily slow. If you played a little more aggressively, he could get in trouble real fast.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 5 . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe

1) Black cannot erase all White's points in the center or on the top.

2) White has some reducing moves (C15 B15 B14, as well as on the right) ?

Hard to evaluate anyway!

At move 48, your extension works with these stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But a higher move would work with these stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . W W W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

yakcyll wrote:This is a win I scored this week in a club game against a player who surprised me with many of their moves. The reason I'm putting up a game I won for review is that in the middle of it both a 1D friend of mine and myself concluded that my position is unsatisfying and I pondered whether I should resign.

I advise DDKs, "Never resign." Maybe that goes for you, as well.

This on its own probably doesn't make it good enough, but after reviewing the game with Leela, it stated that my position was actually very good and the biggest points it suggested made no sense to me in that moment. I am hoping for some concrete guidance here, because I don't know what to think.

Early on, when Black shifts to the top side, if you did not have the C-14 - D-14 exchange, C-15 would be a good play. The C-14 - D-14 exchange makes it even better, because that makes that exchange good for White. In fact, in a variety of contexts, it remains a good move through most of the game.

The position above (move 67) is the one where I considered conceding the game. If you look at it, White's potential in the center doesn't seem to amount to much, Black's structure seems strong, killing the bottom group of his is not a matter of question, he has a lot of points of his own.

The fact that Black's bottom side group is weak is an important consideration. Not that you can kill it, but if you play first you can probably hold it to small life while erasing Black's moyo on the right. (OC, since you killed the center you did not have to do that.) This Black player seems to have a knack for making small life.

And Leela suggests to start cutting in top right! It feels like if I do, Black will concede the stones on the left and just keep ruining White's potential in the center and on top. For me it stands to reason that Leela's suggestions are not of much use to me, because I don't know which area to prioritize and how to proceed technically with saving or ruining points.

From the looks of this game, you are rather good at fighting. The saying is that thickness is for fighting, not territory. So don't worry about your opponent ruining the potential of your thickness. Even if he managed to live in the center in this game, you could attack his bottom side group and take a big bite out if his right side.

So let me back up cyndane's suggestion. Play for thickness, don't worry about points, and go for the jugular.

Good luck!

cyndane wrote:This may not be what you want to hear:

You have 3 black groups fully enclosed at move 67. Keep surrounding groups and you will watch it pay dividends. Once a group is fully surrounded it has no more impact on the rest of the game. This is a big deal. Meanwhile black feels the urgency to rush into your middle. You cut him, and smash him into your strength. Good work!

Keep surrounding groups!

Sounds good. I'm slowly starting to appreciate the sort of fuzzy advice the more I play and I guess the evidence that the plan to just surround might take me somewhere just keeps piling up.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:At move 46, E5 seemed unnecessarily slow. If you played a little more aggressively, he could get in trouble real fast.

$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 5 . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 5 . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Oh, that looks nasty... Admittedly I didn't really push for killing it because I'm on a murder rehab of sorts, but that shouldn't stop me looking for moves like this and I haven't noticed it before. Cheers!

Joaz Banbeck wrote:At move 48, your extension works with these stones:

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . 1 . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But a higher move would work with these stones:

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . W W W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . W W W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Same with this one. Thanks for these suggestions!

Bill Spight wrote:I advise DDKs, "Never resign." Maybe that goes for you, as well.

Definitely something to think about, yeah.

Bill Spight wrote:Early on, when Black shifts to the top side, if you did not have the C-14 - D-14 exchange, C-15 would be a good play. The C-14 - D-14 exchange makes it even better, because that makes that exchange good for White. In fact, in a variety of contexts, it remains a good move through most of the game.

This is what sort of confuses me. Especially when Black drops down to C-18, the push doesn't seem to accomplish much (not until some strength appears around there later, I admit I should've noticed that I could easily cut off the three stones). Comparing this position to the other 3-3 joseki one, there the push is actually considered a bad move, so it's unclear to me in here, again, especially after Black shifts to top right, how the push is of any threat to Black.

Bill Spight wrote:The fact that Black's bottom side group is weak is an important consideration. Not that you can kill it, but if you play first you can probably hold it to small life while erasing Black's moyo on the right. (OC, since you killed the center you did not have to do that.) This Black player seems to have a knack for making small life.

Yeah, I definitely don't appreciate how valuable pushing a group around to force it to live can be. I think it will come with time, around when I start considering the efficiency and multi-purpose moves.

Bill Spight wrote:So let me back up cyndane's suggestion. Play for thickness, don't worry about points, and go for the jugular.

Good luck!

Much thanks!

yakcyll wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:Early on, when Black shifts to the top side, if you did not have the C-14 - D-14 exchange, C-15 would be a good play. The C-14 - D-14 exchange makes it even better, because that makes that exchange good for White. In fact, in a variety of contexts, it remains a good move through most of the game.

This is what sort of confuses me. Especially when Black drops down to C-18, the push doesn't seem to accomplish much (not until some strength appears around there later, I admit I should've noticed that I could easily cut off the three stones). Comparing this position to the other 3-3 joseki one, there the push is actually considered a bad move, so it's unclear to me in here, again, especially after Black shifts to top right, how the push is of any threat to Black.

If I get what you are talking about, in the other joseki Black has the C-14 stone, but White does not have the D-14 stone. That's a big difference.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X X X O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this position would be a good move. (Deep Leela agrees.) But then - would be a bad exchange for Black. That's what makes the push through in the actual game good in a lot of different whole board positions.