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 Post subject: Review Request
Post #1 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:32 am 
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I was wondering if someone might comment on the game below -- particularly between moves 31 through 47.

I often have trouble with these kinds of games. Opponent played odd moves early on and then just tried to harass me for the majority of the game. Board seemed good for black up to 31, but white seemed to take back quite a bit through move 47. I think the issue was primarily poor shape choices by me. The rest of the game felt quite comfortable, and I think I did a significantly better job than I normally do at protecting my shape and connections.



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2019-02-08 W IGS 2k.sgf [10.04 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #2 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:59 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . X X X O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------------[/go]
I have a feeling Black gave up too much in that sequence. The three black stones on the outside seem to be fairly useless, with little compensation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 1 O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ +----------------[/go]
I was taught once that this is better when the approach stone is high.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O O . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . .
$$ | . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
This can't be the answer. Against the peep, just atari on the first line, then connect. If you're worried about a shortage of liberties (which can occur with hanging connections), this isn't the answer either, but sometimes a move like this is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$ +----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . O O . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . .
$$ | . O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc19
$$-----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . a O . . |
$$ . . O 1 O X . . |
$$ X . O . X b . . |
$$ X X O X . . . . |
$$ X O X X . . . . |
$$ O O . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
You also give a variation for "a". Did you consider not giving either atari, and just connecting at "b"?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$-------------------------+
$$ . O . X X X O . 1 X a . |
$$ O O X . X O . O O O X . |
$$ X O O X 2 O O X O X . . |
$$ X O X X X . O X X X . . |
$$ O X X . X X O X . . . . |
$$ O O O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ O . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ . . O X . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Instead of 2, why not at a? Seems like a threat to kill, and the best your opponent can hope for is a ko for seki. And you get more in the corner.


This post by bernds was liked by: BlindGroup
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #3 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Thanks for the comments. This is helpful.

bernds wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc19
$$-------------------------+
$$ . O . X X X O . 1 X a . |
$$ O O X . X O . O O O X . |
$$ X O O X 2 O O X O X . . |
$$ X O X X X . O X X X . . |
$$ O X X . X X O X . . . . |
$$ O O O X X O X X . . . . |
$$ O . O O O O . . . . . . |
$$ . . O X . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Instead of 2, why not at a? Seems like a threat to kill, and the best your opponent can hope for is a ko for seki. And you get more in the corner.


I didn't see this at all. That is a better solution!

On this one, why is white better off after the marked move? My thinking was that there is still some aji in that black can cut the white stones with one move. And white doesn't have an extension in place. So, black could immediately turn around and limit the influence. What am I missing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O W , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #4 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:38 pm 
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BlindGroup wrote:
On this one, why is white better off after the marked move? My thinking was that there is still some aji in that black can cut the white stones with one move. And white doesn't have an extension in place. So, black could immediately turn around and limit the influence. What am I missing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O W , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, turns out LZ agrees with you. There were wild swings in the sequence leading here, but at this point it claims 50% chances. To my eyes it looks bad - I can't see the three outside stones being useful or White having any trouble from here, but perhaps Black's territory is large enough and doesn't have sente threats against it?


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #5 Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:29 pm 
Honinbo

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I showed a lot of variations for White. You can't understand your mistakes without seeing his. :)



Main focus: Do not strengthen your opponent's stones needlessly.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #6 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:31 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
I showed a lot of variations for White. You can't understand your mistakes without seeing his. :)

Main focus: Do not strengthen your opponent's stones needlessly.


Bill, thanks for the detailed comments! This was very helpful. Seems that in addition to strengthening my opponent, I was also too resistant to sacrifice.

One question though on this move that you said was played to close to opponent's strength:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Would this move have been ok if black was stronger on the top as here? How about something like A?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #7 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:29 pm 
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In my opinion, there's better places to play : The right (or the top) side is much bigger

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #8 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:21 pm 
Tengen
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Having looked at the board for about five seconds, I'd play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O B . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


While proofreading the above diagram, I spent another few seconds looking at the board, and decided that I like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O O 3 . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #9 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Tryss and Joaz, thanks for the comments. However, my question is a little bit different. Bill's comment indicated (as you all note) that the timing is wrong for this move or a move like it. But he also indicated that whenever it is played, the stone is too close to white's strength. Setting the timing of the move aside, I'm trying to figure out if it was reasonable if black were stronger or if even if black were stronger it would still be too close to white.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #10 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:03 pm 
Honinbo

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BlindGroup wrote:
Tryss and Joaz, thanks for the comments. However, my question is a little bit different. Bill's comment indicated (as you all note) that the timing is wrong for this move or a move like it. But he also indicated that whenever it is played, the stone is too close to white's strength. Setting the timing of the move aside, I'm trying to figure out if it was reasonable if black were stronger or if even if black were stronger it would still be too close to white.


How about adding stones to construct the position you're inquiring about?

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #11 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:13 pm 
Gosei

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Kirby wrote:
How about adding stones to construct the position you're inquiring about?

It's the second diagram of this comment (#6).

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #12 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:16 pm 
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BlindGroup wrote:
Tryss and Joaz, thanks for the comments. However, my question is a little bit different. Bill's comment indicated (as you all note) that the timing is wrong for this move or a move like it. But he also indicated that whenever it is played, the stone is too close to white's strength. Setting the timing of the move aside, I'm trying to figure out if it was reasonable if black were stronger or if even if black were stronger it would still be too close to white.


Sorry, I took another look at my comment, and I was quoting the proverb. The proverb usually says not to approach thickness, but strong stones, IMO, is less likely to be misunderstood. Why not approach strong stones? Well, for one thing you are not attacking them. Second, even if attack is not your aim, because of the strong stones, your potential development is reduced.

OC, eventually you approach strong stones, so it is a question of timing. So if your corner stones were stronger, the move would still be premature. In fact, you would have less reason to make an extension, because your strong stones would not need any support. When strong stones face strong stones, the no man's land in between is not worth very much.

In this particular case, White is strong, but Black may at some point wish to approach White, to threaten to run with the weak Black stones. That question depends upon whole board judgement. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request
Post #13 Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:53 pm 
Tengen
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BlindGroup wrote:
... I'm trying to figure out if it was reasonable if black were stronger or if even if black were stronger it would still be too close to white.


Yes, it could be fine at the star point if black were stronger. IMHO, it would be fine in the diagram below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ A not unlikely sequence at the kyu level
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 O O 3 5 7 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | 0 1 O X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X X O O O O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: BlindGroup
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