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 Post subject: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #1 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:53 pm 
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I've never played a game on a real board with time controls, but I was curious about a few things.

If you place a stone, but don't hit the button on the clock is your move still final or is it only final if you press the button? I know that if one's hand is still on the stone it's never final, but I was curious about the former.

Also, in the event you make a large capture, do you get to pause your clock while you take off the opponent's stones? If someone was in Byoyomi and had to take off a bunch of stones on their move, that'd seem logical. Especially if he/she was near the end of a period when making a move as this wouldn't burn the period. Although even if it wasn't Byoyomi, those extra seconds could help.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #2 Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:38 pm 
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Hi Sivak,
I only played with clocks on small events and I think that there are better people here to give you a detailed answer, still I know something about the second part of your question.
Sivak wrote:
in the event you make a large capture, do you get to pause your clock while you take off the opponent's stones? If someone was in Byoyomi and had to take off a bunch of stones on their move, that'd seem logical.
I cannot say if it is logical, but in pro games I remember that I read that, also if there is a dedicated time-keeper referee, the player is requested to take away the stones he killed from the board to effectively complete a move, and you can see them funnily picking up the stones with both hands. :D
I am referring to top pro games, so maybe I am OT with your question.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #3 Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:42 am 
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You can't change your move after letting go of the stone but before pressing the clock. Your move is final once it leaves your fingers, or maybe as soon as it is placed on the board in stricter rules.

In British rules iirc you can pause the clock to capture more than 3 stones in blitz games but not regular games. EGF tournament rules allow it in overtime or absolute time games for 3 or more, see para 5.6.5 of https://www.eurogofed.org/egf/tourrules.htm. I have unnecessarily captured a large dragon in overtime to avoid my opponent playing atari at the end of the Canadian overtime period (of 50 stones in 5 minutes, i.e. blitz) at which point I wouldn't have enough time to pick up the dead stones. I think British rules should adopt the EGF clause to avoid such meta-gaming considerations.


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Post #4 Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:19 am 
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Hi Sivak,
Sivak wrote:
I know that if one's hand is still on the stone it's never final
I don't know about chess etiquette, whether that's where you got the idea about the fingers still touching the stone: from what I've seen in all serious tourney games and in all the NHK TV pro games, nobody ever tried to pull off a placement-then-decide-against-it-and-slide-the-stone-elsewhere; that's very bad form, even in casual amateur coffee shop games, IMO.

As for removing a huge dragon, there have been precedents in pro games where the opponent kindly paused the clock for someone to pick up a large number of stones.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:14 pm 
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If you watch games from the NHK TV tournament you occasionally see a pro slap a stone down in a large open area and continuing to slide the stone to where it ends up. It is all one gesture, with no hesitation with the stone. This seems to be acceptible, part of the "hand talk".

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #6 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:19 pm 
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AGA Rules (http://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/AGATourna ... ns2014.pdf):
Quote:
1. A stone laid is a stone played. A stone is played when it touches the board (unless dropped by accident) and is moved to the intended intersection with a minimum of adjustment. Players are advised to avoid ambiguity, and TDs may warn - rather than punish - questionable infractions. Once a stone is played it may not be moved or removed except as a capture or as part of the retraction of an illegal move,as provided below.

3. Completion of a move. A move is complete when a stone is played, any captured stones removed, and the clock is punched, or, in non-clocked games, when a stone is played and any captured stones are removed. In a clocked game, the opponent may play at any time after the other player’s hand is no longer obstructing access to the board and captured stones have been removed, regardless of whether the opponent has punched the clock. (This rule is absolute.)

8. Punching the clock. A player must "punch the clock" with the same hand that plays the stone. (This rule is absolute.)

11. Stopping the clock. Players may stop both clocks only under the following circumstances:...c. Removal of more than one captured stone;d. Exchange of prisoners...

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #7 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:50 am 
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Let me reply to myself: my sense is that 8 isn't adhered to that well. I think most players do use the stone placing hand, but unless someone were obviously trying to abuse the system (hitting the clock with one hand while they place with the other so that you lose time), it's ignored if someone doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #8 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:34 pm 
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There is an important consequence of rule #8, namely that it will often happen that one of the players will have the clock in an awkward place. If the player is left handed and so plays stones with his/her left hand but the clock is on his/her right hand side that player will have a (slight?) disadvantage in a blitz situation. Same situation for a right handed player with the clock on the left. Playing and punching the clock with different hands can save a fraction of a second on each move.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #9 Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:09 pm 
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gowan wrote:
There is an important consequence of rule #8, namely that it will often happen that one of the players will have the clock in an awkward place. If the player is left handed and so plays stones with his/her left hand but the clock is on his/her right hand side that player will have a (slight?) disadvantage in a blitz situation. Same situation for a right handed player with the clock on the left. Playing and punching the clock with different hands can save a fraction of a second on each move.

But it allows a situation to arise where the player actually punches the clock faster than they play the stone.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #10 Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:45 am 
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The rule I've usually seen with clock placement is that the winner of nigiri gets black (or possibly gets to choose which colour these days as white is considered by many as preferable with the big komi), whilst the loser of nigiri gets to choose which side to put the clock (so usually on the right). That's if the tournament organiser doesn't mandate clock placement, which they may do to get them all facing the same way so a referee walking past can check them all at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #11 Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:18 am 
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The problem sometimes arises in pair go when the other players presses the clock too early.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #12 Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:38 pm 
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I had a game once where in byo-yomi my opponent played so fast that I didn't have time to press my own clock.

I.e. I would place my stone, and he would then place his own stone and 'tap' the clock before I managed to hit it myself, thus effectively only using my time.

I can understand that kind of play in a blitz tournament, but this was with a generous byo-yomi in a 1+ hour game.

At that point I got upset and asked him not to play before I had pressed the clock, but I'm still unsure if that was legitimate. (it was a long stressful game, and it was annoying not even being able to press the clock)

What do you guys think about that stituation? Is my turn over when I place the stone or when I press the clock?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #13 Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:08 am 
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He shouldn't play before you press your clock. Doing so under Fischer time deprives you of your increment. From EGF rules:
Quote:
Making a move A stone is played quickly as near as possible to its intended intersection. Once the stone touches the board, there should be minimal physical movement required to place the stone on its intended intersection, and then it should be released straightaway. Once the stone is played, any removal of the opponent's stones is carried out. A move is completed by pressing the clock with the same hand that played the move. Once the clock is pressed, the hand used must promptly be removed from the clock.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #14 Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:01 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
He shouldn't play before you press your clock. Doing so under Fischer time deprives you of your increment.


This makes sense to me and seems like it would avoid conflicts. But according to hyperpape's quote, the AGA rules indicate the following:
Quote:
In a clocked game, the opponent may play at any time after the other player’s hand is no longer obstructing access to the board and captured stones have been removed, regardless of whether the opponent has punched the clock. (This rule is absolute.)


Could someone with knowledge of the AGA rules clarify how this would work if your opponent plays before you have a chance to hit the clock?

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #15 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:45 am 
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Maybe you press the clock anyway regardless whether the opponent has pressed the clock. Then it becomes the opponents problem.

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Post #16 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:54 am 
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It seems that it would take quite a legalistically phrased, long discussion to specify in total detail what constitutes a move and clock punching. The issue of clocks and moves may be simpler playing on a server but even there issues can arise due to netlag. :P)

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #17 Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:33 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
Could someone with knowledge of the AGA rules clarify how this would work if your opponent plays before you have a chance to hit the clock?
I'm not a tournament director, but in my experience there are two cases where this happens:

1. Someone forgets to hit their clock. If you're thinking for a long time, the polite thing is to gesture and remind your opponent. But if you're playing quickly, you might just play.
2. People are playing very quickly and play over each other. That's a bit rude. You'd just keep hitting your clock when it's time.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about real boards and time controls
Post #18 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:23 am 
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Many of these rules vary region to region.

For instance in Taiwan there seems to be no clear limit when you can pause the clock to pick up a large number of stones, most people agree that 5-6 stones or more is enough.

Also using the same hand to play and press the clock does NOT apply here, players typically play with one hand on the clock and the other placing the stone.

Sliding stones on the board also seems ok, the play is final once you release the stone.

So check your local rules is my advice.

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