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 Post subject: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #1 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:06 pm 
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My friend loves (insists) to play this "joseki" as white. I do not like it at all. But it is played by 9D Professionals from time to time.

What is your take on this one?

(Elf[-5%] and I think :w2: is not a good play.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . , . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tan Xiao, 9p - Jiang Weijie, 9p, B+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 24, 2018-11-16

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #2 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 pm 
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(Follow up)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O 6 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . , . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #3 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:05 pm 
Judan
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A joseki is any pattern that two or more pros play when sober.

Given the influence that black has in this particular fuseki, I might play this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . , . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #4 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:25 pm 
Judan

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I think it makes sense if the side is particularly important, but locally it's probably played with a grimace. You can compare to black playing double hane (which isn't really joseki as giid for white) and this one isn't as good for white because you didn't get a free Black stone for bonus eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #5 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:21 pm 
Lives with ko

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Gomoto wrote:
My friend loves (insists) to play this "joseki" as white. I do not like it at all. But it is played by 9D Professionals from time to time.

What is your take on this one?

(Elf[-5%] and I think :w2: is not a good play.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . , . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tan Xiao, 9p - Jiang Weijie, 9p, B+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 24, 2018-11-16


I don't know about your friend, but I can tell that pros didn't play "a joseki" when they played the sequence above, they just played whatever made sense to them in the context of the whole board.

Also, 5% winrate loss is a very small price to play for getting a position one is comfortable in :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #6 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 pm 
Oza
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Gomoto wrote:
My friend loves (insists) to play this "joseki" as white. I do not like it at all. But it is played by 9D Professionals from time to time.

What is your take on this one?

(Elf[-5%] and I think :w2: is not a good play.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . , . . X . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tan Xiao, 9p - Jiang Weijie, 9p, B+R (Komi 7.5)
20th Chinese League A, round 24, 2018-11-16

Since you claim to have an opinion separate from Elf, could you show your preferred line here and explain why you think it is better (without referring to Elf or any other bot)? These days it seems to me that too much or our "thinking" (including mine!) consists of checking the calculations made by bots that we do not really understand. :)

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #7 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:23 pm 
Lives in sente

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 a . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


I prefer a over b in this line.
Professionals choose a over b too. (231 to 1 Waltheri)
There are only 16 games with b in my pro game database (469 to 16), winrate is about even.
White probably retains sente after move a and ends in gote after move b.

Two common follow up positions to move a (white to play next):

Variation A1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ , . . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . X . O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Variation A2:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Do you think my friend should continue to play move b at every occurrence of this position or should he start to explore the possibilities of move a? ;-)

If my friend is asking me (and he is asking me indeed), I am a strong proponent of move a. But who am I to make such statements? ;-)

(And let us keep the play like AI or think for yourself discussion out of this thread. It is an interesting discussion, but there have been other threads already and it is not my point of interest in this case.)

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #8 Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:41 pm 
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Thanks for your answers up until now. I infer from them most of you propose: If my friend is fine with move b he should continue playing it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #9 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:41 am 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
Thanks for your answers up until now. I infer from them most of you propose: If my friend is fine with move b he should continue playing it. :)


If your friend is fine with move b he will continue playing it. Problem solved. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #10 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:56 am 
Honinbo

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Joseki are standard sequences of play. Whether a play or sequence is joseki may be a matter of opinion.

When joseki books are rewritten -- and boy howdy will they be rewritten! -- play "a" will surely be called joseki. My guess is that play "b" will be considered a situational play, i.e., not standard, but sometimes played, depending upon the whole board situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B a . |
$$ . . . . . . X O 4 . |
$$ , . . . . . X O 5 6 |
$$ . . . . . . X O 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 X O . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


What makes :w9: problematic is the sequence after :w11:, which gives White a clump of stones. If Black later plays at "a" White's corner stones are obviously locally inefficient. And if White plays at "a" Black can make ko. (It is too early to play "a", OC.) Are :w9: and :w11: worth the cost in the corner? Maybe. Sometimes. But not usually.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #11 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:29 am 
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Gomoto wrote:
Thanks for your answers up until now. I infer from them most of you propose: If my friend is fine with move b he should continue playing it. :)


Friends let friends choose what joseki to play. Be it a, or b :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #12 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:15 am 
Judan

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Gomoto, if you wish to show your friend the error of his ways I suggest the following 2 approaches:
1) After he plays this outside atari connect play the rest of the game at exactly the same level as him and win by 1-2 points. Repeat 1000 times.
2) Kill the group later, bully it into miserable gote life, or otherwise gain a large advantage in a nearby fight by using moves sente two ways. Humans tend to learn faster from such drastic loses ;-)


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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #13 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:55 am 
Lives in sente

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That is exactly what is happening ;-) :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #14 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:47 pm 
Dies with sente

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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
A joseki is any pattern that two or more pros play when sober.


Those of you on these forums that write books: please include this in your glossary of terms.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #15 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:50 pm 
Judan

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A few more contributions:
Sente: a move you hope your opponent ignores
Gote: a move you hope your opponent answers
Carpenter's Square: a corner shape to study later

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #16 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:06 pm 
Honinbo

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Uberdude wrote:
A few more contributions:
Sente: a move you hope your opponent ignores
Gote: a move you hope your opponent answers
Carpenter's Square: a corner shape to study later


Do: A deer, a female deer
Re: A drop of golden sun
Mi: A name I call myself
Fa: A long, long way to run

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Is this even joseki? 9 Dans play it from time to time.
Post #17 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:11 pm 
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thread derailed :blackeye:

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