It is currently Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:30 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: taisha fail
Post #1 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:42 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8480
Liked others: 1467
Was liked: 1406
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
i was studying taisha just for kicks, so i try to play this fuseki as black:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


and i want them to play taisha. but so far, a lot of people avoid it, and they just play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . c . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 8 6 4 X 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And it's kind of fizzled out - I wanted to get a complicated fight with taisha, but it just fizzles out. white gets territory, and i have a framework... but not really sure what to do with it. I think about playing 'a', 'b', and 'c'... But not that satisfying. Then I looked at this with LZ, and leela doesn't really like this for black anyway - white was up by like 10 or 15%...

So should I just ditch the 5-3 opening? Or something else? My main goal is to play a fuseki that gets into a complicated game early on. Any specific examples of how to achieve this?

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #2 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:46 am 
Judan

Posts: 5936
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 338
Was liked: 3180
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Try this 'taisha'

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #3 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:50 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8480
Liked others: 1467
Was liked: 1406
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
interesting - haven't seen that move before. i'll have to experiment with it.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #4 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:33 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1366
Liked others: 348
Was liked: 386
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Kirby wrote:
i was studying taisha just for kicks, so i try to play this fuseki as black:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


and i want them to play taisha. but so far, a lot of people avoid it, and they just play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . c . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 8 6 4 X 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And it's kind of fizzled out - I wanted to get a complicated fight with taisha, but it just fizzles out. white gets territory, and i have a framework... but not really sure what to do with it. I think about playing 'a', 'b', and 'c'... But not that satisfying. Then I looked at this with LZ, and leela doesn't really like this for black anyway - white was up by like 10 or 15%...

So should I just ditch the 5-3 opening? Or something else? My main goal is to play a fuseki that gets into a complicated game early on. Any specific examples of how to achieve this?


When you played move 9 in the first diagram you played the taisha. Unfortunately, in Western go the word has morphed into the name of just one variation, the one you want your opponent to play. In fact there are several responses to the taisha that avoid difficulties and the second diagram shows one of them. To see others you can look on Sensei's Library or consult a joseki dictionary such as Ishida's of Takao's. In the end you can't force white to play the way you want. Possibly, if White doesn't know the joseki very well s/he might interpret your invitation as a lure into a trap. If you want to practice this joseki why not set up LZ to play it with you?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #5 Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:53 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8480
Liked others: 1467
Was liked: 1406
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right.

About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:46 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1366
Liked others: 348
Was liked: 386
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Kirby wrote:
Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right.

About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S


LZ in general seems to value secure territory over influence. In the variation you showed White gets territory and Black gets influence. That could possibly be why LZ dislikes the 5-3 opening. If Black starts with the 5-3 point White can always get territory in the corner. I like the Black result of the variation you showed; Black gets thickness and can play on the right side star point to get a nice moyo. But I certainly don't understand LZ's "thinking" here.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8591
Liked others: 2511
Was liked: 2962
gowan wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Thanks, my terminology was wrong - you’re right.

About LZ, it doesn’t seem to like the 5-3 point to begin with :-S


LZ in general seems to value secure territory over influence. In the variation you showed White gets territory and Black gets influence. That could possibly be why LZ dislikes the 5-3 opening.


I have not made a study of LZ, but I do not think that top bots in general favor territory over influence. That said, I think they all do not like the 5-3 in an empty corner, except perhaps on rare occasions.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . 9 a , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


In this diagram, I think that they do not like :b3:, :b7:, or :b9:, and maybe not :b5:. As for :b9:, my guess is that LZ prefers the press at a. That seems to be a bot favorite. :)

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #8 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8480
Liked others: 1467
Was liked: 1406
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
well, only two days until the us go congress, so i decided to forget about what the computer thinks, and play what i want. it's too late to change my preferences at this point anyway. i'm just going to play what i want to.

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness


This post by Kirby was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, dfan
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #9 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:47 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1372
Liked others: 671
Was liked: 442
Rank: AGA 3k KGS 1k
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
It is generally a good idea, and In-seong backed this up in his latest lecture, to focus on your weaknesses when you are training and on your strengths when you are competing. So I agree that you should follow your instincts (they got you this far!) and don't second-guess yourself about what bots would think. Good luck at the Congress! I imagine I'll run into you there (finally).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #10 Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:59 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8480
Liked others: 1467
Was liked: 1406
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
for sure - i am very excited for this weekend. i do regret that i have not been able to study much to prepare for next week, because i have been stuck remodeling our house - after work and family time, instead of being able to study go, i typically have to work on something like backsplash or tiles or building a pantry.

it's good for our house, but i'm thinking i might be disappointed by my result next week.

nonetheless, i'm really looking forward to it. if nothing else, i can meet friends, play a lot of go, and take a break from remodeling... and it'll be nice to meet you, too, dfan. our congress visits haven't overlapped to date :-)

_________________
it's be happy, not achieve happiness

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: taisha fail
Post #11 Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 21
Liked others: 3
Was liked: 3
Kirby wrote:
well, only two days until the us go congress, so i decided to forget about what the computer thinks, and play what i want. it's too late to change my preferences at this point anyway. i'm just going to play what i want to.


When Takemiya attended the US Go Congress he gave a lecture in which he said that we should play moves we want to play. I took that to mean that if we play moves we like or want to we will have some reason why we played that way and we will learn from how it turns out. Go for it!

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group