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 Post subject: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #1 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:36 pm 
Dies in gote
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Hello to you all again!
After i haven't been playing much throughout the winter months, i lastly got into playing some go again! Today i had an very interesting match on KGS i really wanted to review a little more in detail. So i went over a few positions and meanwhile fed the game to GRP to see what Leela has to say to all of this. In the end i found a few mistakes i made, but nothing that seems gamelosing at my current level (considering that my opponent also made a few suboptimal moves).
Was i to concerned with what my opponent may want to do and missed out on taking points myself? I tried to take and hold on to the initiative a little more, than in my previous games as it seemed to me as if i tend to play a little slow. Or did i get behind just because of the amount of ok-but-not-ideal-moves i played?


I added comments and variations to the game, feel free to comment on those too if i get something wrong. If you have any tips on how to get more out of one owns game reviews, that would of course also be appreciated.

PS: If in my comments a move is considered "also fine" it means that it is among the preferred 4-5 choices of the bot, which makes it ok for me.. i guess :lol:


Thanks for you time :)



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Post #2 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:50 pm 
Honinbo
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Quote:
Was i to[sic] concerned with what my opponent may want to do and missed out on taking points myself? ... Or did i get behind just because of the amount of ok-but-not-ideal-moves i played?
Hi Noles,

General reply to general questions: improve the fundamentals ( foundation ); always look at the global situation; no escape: must study the specifics of each mistake, one move at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #3 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:54 pm 
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I think your play all the way up to L4 is perfectly fine. In fact, I applaud you for having a patient style. No big errors until L4, which you seem to have thoroughly explored, so I won't hammer it in. But this shape would be useful to remember...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram.
$$w ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram.
$$w ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 7 . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 3 X 6 O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . 2 1 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ --------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O O 2 X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X X O . O O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White attach and cross cut on the bottom is really good for breaking into a moyo. So black may not choose to play like this.

My only other remark is to play Q10 instead of R10 to fight blacks moyo. It makes reducing black easier. You played at "a" but I like Q10 better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . O . X . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . W a . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . O . X . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . W . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White should strive to stay ahead of black to limit his growth.


Last edited by Hades12 on Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by Hades12 was liked by: 00Noles
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #4 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:06 pm 
Tengen
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Up to move 25 your game looks good for an 8 kyu. Then you let him push you around.
His hane is way too thin. When you play low in response, he gets more than he ought to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Too submissive.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you cut, he is too thin to fight, especially when you have the ladder breaker at Q16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black has too many cutting points
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 4 C . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X C . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #5 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:11 pm 
Lives with ko

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Joaz is right concerning the cut. That is a must play at higher ranks. I don't think it was the losing move, but I think you should definitely start looking at these cuts, asking yourself if your opponent is strong enough to fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #6 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:20 pm 
Tengen
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At move 28, you are worried about black taking a moyo.
There are two reasons that you should not worry yet.
1) His 'wall' is still thin
2) He cannot seal the moyo in one move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Premature, IMHO
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The right side is actually bigger.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Position at move 28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc If he pincers, you suppress the impending moyo.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he plays safe, you shoulder hit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . 3 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #7 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:33 pm 
Tengen
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From about move 120 through 144, W at S8 was huge.


Also, how would you have handled it if B had played R1 on move 225? ( If at move 214 you had played the 1-point gote at T4 instead of the 1-point gote at E11, this question would have never arisen. )

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Post #8 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:43 pm 
Honinbo
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Hi Noles,
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ ? . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? , . 5 7 . X X X . . |
$$ ? . 3 X 6 O . O O . . |
$$ ? . 2 1 4 O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]
White attach and cross cut on the bottom is really good for breaking into a moyo. So black may not choose to play like this.
The :w1: :b2: :w3: cross cut sequence very useful to know;
possible variations include:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W just pull back
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ ? . 2 X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :black: atari?
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? , 4 . . . X X X . . |
$$ ? . 3 X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? . 2 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]
As always, it depends on the whole board.


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #9 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:58 pm 
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A few top of the head comments. :)

00Noles wrote:
If in my comments a move is considered "also fine" it means that it is among the preferred 4-5 choices of the bot, which makes it ok for me.. i guess


IMO, there is no need for an 8 kyu to worry too much about relatively small mistakes. But I doubt if the rank of the move by the bot is the best way identify them. My guess is that within 6% of Leela's best winrate estimate is OK. (OC, those small errors can add up. ;))

:w6: Bots are not fond of pincers. AlphaGoTeach ( https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com ) recommends approaching the bottom left corner.

:w14: B-14 used to be considered a beginner's move, but the bots prefer it.

:w16: The low approach used to be considered old-fashioned, but the bots usually prefer it.

:w22: The high extension to A makes good balance with the low pincer in the top left. This is a good lesson. In this case, OK is not really good enough.

:w24: The jump to D-07 is standard.

:w26: I think Joaz is right about the cut.

:w28: The trouble is, Black's pincer at M-03 is a good play. Better to play N-03 or oven M-03 yourself.

:w30: Bad plan. Greedy. Jump to O-05 is better.

:w36: Passe, I think. Leela may disagree. How about something around R-13?

:w38: Leela is right, because of Black's strength in the top left. This is an important lesson.

:w40: I would have made the same play as you, but I defer to Leela's judgement. (Not Leela 11, but Leela Zero.)

:w46: Looks fine to me. :)

:w48: Only a 9% loss? Leela is right, OC. Another important lesson.

:w50: Leela is right, OC. A big hint that the cut is not so good is that it makes bad shape (empty triangle). Your play on the bottom is heavy. You should expect to sacrifice the L-04 stone.

:w56: Not a good plan. If White pushes to E-05 and cuts, Black can happily sacrifice three stones for an attack against White.

:w60: Invites the capping play. For running out, H-08 feels better to me. Leela may disagree.

:w62: You are not attacking, you are under attack. Besides, E-O5 is the play to cut.

:w70: I still like H-08.

White 106: Not too late to take the J-11 stone, eh? What does Leela say?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #10 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:37 pm 
Tengen
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You can be thankful that your opponent missed a tesuji at move 223.

You guys played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Too easy for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X X X X . O O O X X X X X . |
$$ | X X O O O O X O X , X O . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O . . . O O X X . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | O O X . . . . O O X X X O . O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . O X X X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O X O O O X X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X X X X O O . O |
$$ | . . O O X . O X O O O X . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O . . O X O X . . X X X |
$$ | . 2 . O X O X O . . O O X . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . O X O O . O . . . X X . . X X X |
$$ | O O O X X X O . O O O O X O X X X O . |
$$ | X 1 O X X O X O O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . X X X . . . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But he could have played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Liberty-gaining tesuji
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X X X X . O O O X X X X X . |
$$ | X X O O O O X O X , X O . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O . . . O O X X . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | O O X . . . . O O X X X O . O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . O X X X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O X O O O X X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X X X X O O . O |
$$ | . . O O X . O X O O O X . . . X X O O |
$$ | . 4 O X X X X O . . O X O X . . X X X |
$$ | . 3 1 O X O X O . . O O X . . O O O X |
$$ | 5 . 2 O X O O . O . . . X X . . X X X |
$$ | O O O X X X O . O O O O X O X X X O . |
$$ | X . O X X O X O O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . X X . X . X X X . . . X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black looks like he is behind, two liberties to three. But white now needs an approach move.

If you learn nothing else from this thread, :b5: is a nice tesuji to have in your arsenal. :twisted:


This post by Joaz Banbeck was liked by: 00Noles
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #11 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:53 pm 
Lives in gote
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LeelaZero157 likes :w36:, :w40: and :white: 102. The clamp works for Black if he can fight the ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . X . . . . . |
$$ O . X . X X X . |
$$ . . . O O O X . |
$$ . O . . 6 3 O 2 |
$$ . . . O 5 4 1 . |
$$ . . . O X X 7 . |
$$ . . X X O O X . |
$$ . . X O . . O . |
$$ . . X O , O . . |[/go]


Other remark: speaking about modern robotic josekis, here is LZ's preference on the bottom right:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 2 X X X . . |
$$ . 4 X . O . O O . . |
$$ . . 3 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


This post by jlt was liked by 2 people: 00Noles, Bill Spight
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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #12 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:01 am 
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Thank you all for your kind advice so far! I see there is much for me to gain from this game :)


@Hades & @EdLee

-Concerning w M-2: The squeeze is really nice, as you already pointed out i would rather expect black pulling back to L-3. Am i right in the assumption, that black also gets in trouble playing the hane at K-2 after white pushes one more, because of the small knights relation of the marked stones?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W extend one more
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . B X X . . |
$$ . 4 2 B . O . O O . . |
$$ . . 3 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W hane and cut
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ . 7 . . 9 . B X X . . |
$$ 6 5 2 B . O . O O . . |
$$ 8 4 3 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]



@Hades

Q-10 instead of R-10 makes perfect sense, now that you pointed it out. If white is low and black responds high white is always behind, from the beginning on. I will try to bear this in mind in future games :study:




@Joaz
- :w25: @ E-7 looks really good, thanks for the hint! Defending instead of cutting here was kind of a default for me i think. I will try to look out for chances to counter such plays more actively in my next games.

- :w28: This makes perfect sense. :b29: @ O-3 then :w30: @ N-4 looks like a much simpler and more effective variation of my initial plan to shoulder hit at some point. What do you think about :w30: reapproaching @ O-3 after black pincers?

- Concerning life and death at the bottom right - i totally missed this in the game. I guess i remembered something like seven points of space is enough to make two eyes unconditionally and failed to read out the actual position :oops: .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W R-1 is the proper move here, making A and B miai for two eyes, right?
$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O X X X X . O O O X X X X X . |
$$ | X X O O O O X O X , X O . O O O O X . |
$$ | X O O . . . O O X X . X O . . . . O . |
$$ | O O X . . . . O O X X X O . O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O . O O . O X X X X O X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O X O O O X X O . . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X X X X O O . O |
$$ | . . O O X . O X O O O X . . . X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O . . O X O X . . X X X |
$$ | . O . O X O X O . . O O X . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . O X O O . O . . . X X . . X X X |
$$ | O O O X X X O . O O O O X O X X X O X |
$$ | X X O X X O X O O X X X X O X O O O O |
$$ | . X X . X . X X X . . . X O O O . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . 1 . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




- Bottom left endgame tesuji (more like game-ending tesuji :lol: ):

This is good to know! I was aware of the version of this, where whites two stones are on the third line (guess everyone played this one a lot during his/her high DDk days)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W white is short of liberties
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . O O , . .
$$ | . O X . . .
$$ | . O X . . .
$$ | . O X X . .
$$ | . 2 W X . .
$$ | . 3 W X . .
$$ | 1 W X X . .
$$ | X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ +-------------[/go]


And i would totally have anticipated the cut if the marked white stones had only had three liberties, but did really not think about the extra approach move liberty for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ | . . . . O X O O X
$$ | . . . O O X O X O
$$ | . . O X X X X X O
$$ | . . O O X . O X O
$$ | . . W X X X X O .
$$ | . . a W X O X O .
$$ | . . . W X O O . O
$$ | W W W X X X O . O
$$ | X . O X X O X O O
$$ | . X X . X . X X X
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------[/go]


So this always works, when it is 3 to 3 liberties after black cuts and extends at A, because whites stones can not gain extra liberties while reducing blacks, but visa versa black can (with the diagonal), is this about right?


@jlt
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 2 X X X . . |
$$ . 4 X . O . O O . . |
$$ . . 3 1 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]


Thanks for this new joseki choice, looks promising. Guess the bots like it because white gets more territory and blacks position is really flat and sticklike and also only emits influence in one direction, so it can be attacked / massively reduced by taking away its extension. Maybe i will get to experiment with this in my next games.


@Bill
Thank you too!
- :w28: + :w30: - I think it is about the reason, that i played neither of this. It felt that if black builds along the right he gets territory, while i just run away. When i play out some of the options you offered for :w28: and :w30: it looks quite reasonable i think. Often it is still hard for me to really judge a possible outcome if i don't actually see the stones on the board :sad:

- :w36: I don't really understand, what you mean by this. I thought taking away blacks extension while making one one for my own, even if my top right corner is not solidified yet was a good plan.

- :w38:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W W W . W . . b . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . W B B B . a . . , . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . B B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think i was afraid of this position for black, looking strong on the top now. But i guess white still has some good options at A or B still, because although black has to bear in mind the aji of whites pincer stone, the top left position for white has its own defects too, right?

- :w48: yeah, i will take away this as one of the major mistakes in this game. At least it starts to look less tempting now, that you all pointed out a few better alternatives :lol:

- :w50: you mean something like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . O . X . X X . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . 0 . . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 5 7 X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . 8 3 O . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 9 1 X . O . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


- :w62: E-5, of course is right :oops: .I thought i could make some shape here while harassing black a little, but you're right. Even if i do the proper cut at E-5 the white stones get in trouble quite easily.

- :w106: Actually Leela has black pulling out J-11 on her radar for every other move since it got put into atari, while interestingly she never really suggests white taking the stone :scratch:

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Post #13 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:40 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Noles,
My understanding of the variations in post 3 is to demonstrate that locally, in reply to :b2: hane, the :w3: cross cut is a possibility to consider:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ . . 3 X . O . O O . . |
$$ . . 2 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]
As opposed to submitting like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O O . . |
$$ . . 2 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]
This is useful to know if, for example, after :b3: connects, W wants to look for options other than the gote (a):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . X X X 3 . |
$$ . . . X . O . O O 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . 2 a |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Quote:
black also gets in trouble playing the hane at K2 after...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc hane and cut
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? . 7 . . 9 . X X X . . |
$$ ? 6 5 2 X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? 8 4 3 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]
Notice in this variation, :b6: atari pushes :w7: up, which helps W.
B may consider to just extend instead:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ ? . O X X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? 1 X O O . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------------[/go]
But this depends on the rest of the board.

Variation: maybe B wants to atari on top; this also depends on the rest of the board:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ ? 1 . . . . X X X . . |
$$ ? O X X . O . O O . . |
$$ ? X O O . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #14 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:35 am 
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@EdLee

I see, thank you!

Your point about the bottom position together with the general critic by Bill and Joaz regarding :w26: had me motivated to be a little more vigilant about those possibilities to cross cut my opponent in recent games (only three since then, but well..) and i think it really helped to not get behind in those positions too easily and/or reflect some pressure back to the opponent. Unfortunately i have no game record available (unless someone nows how to access games played in tygems iOS version :scratch: )

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Post #15 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:50 am 
Honinbo
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Quote:
... together with the general critic ... regarding :w26:
Maybe tracing back to :w24: : Bill suggests D7; whereas C7 jumped out to me -- notice either D7 or C7 gets ahead of B, while the game move D6 pushes B from behind; seems to me this is more fundamental ( foundational ) than :w26: ( haven't checked the bot's preference for :w24: yet; leave it to you. :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #16 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:20 am 
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@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably :sad:

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken :scratch:


Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #17 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:10 am 
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00Noles wrote:
@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably :sad:

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken :scratch:


Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The marked black stone is pretty severe. As is the attachment on top. I would play the attachment on top, as it invokes a lot of aji. But attaching inside is probably more simple

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :b4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It looks like white can resist. But black will get something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :b4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Seems like 'a' and 'b' are miai for black. If white wants to play 'b' then it affords black to take the corner. If white plays 'a' then black can try to live inside. Might not work. Either way, black doesn't do this immediately. He has to time it properly. This is a later middle game sequence. I'm sure Uber or Ed or Bill can expand on this.

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Post #18 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:48 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Noles,

This is a good example of when I reply, "The bot is a very powerful tool; but play what you understand and can handle."

Re: Hades' variation:
Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Quote:
Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)
:)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Quote:
C7, C9 and C12 all being low looks a bit odd
C12, C9, and C7 all on the 3rd line doesn't bother me on this board, but C9 and C7 are too close and over-concentrated ( re: Bill's D7 ); I would've played C9 at C8 originally ( the bot liked D8 for :w22: as you found out ). I'm eyeing the aji of B's shape around E5.

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #19 Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:12 pm 
Dies in gote
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Regarding C-8 i think i would probably have replied with the diagonal at C-7, but i guess the dropdown by B is not very enjoyable for W..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




If B attaches on top, W extending to C-10 might not be a good idea, as the dropdown seems even stronger now :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . C 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]




Extending back seems quite ok to me tough. If B hanes, W counterhanes. There might be trouble with the aji from the top left corner joseki, but i can not find a sequence right now that really threatens W's stones, but that might just be my insufficiency :lol:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Or would you on a more general note say, that all that trouble on the left side is in fact not worth W's stone on the bottom side?

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #20 Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:27 pm 
Tengen
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Kaya handle: Test
00Noles wrote:
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
...


As I noted earlier, you are being too submissive. If black over-extends, you cut him off:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Or this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ You have the ladder breaker
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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