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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #21 Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:26 pm 
Judan

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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Black cutting you with 3 is the sort of thing you should worry about (note if 2 is at 4 then when black at 5 it reverts). If 6 at 9 there's another ladder/capture miai building.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 9 O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It's only because of the marked white stone that white can safely hane at 12, thus preventing black's miai of a or b ladder.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But the aji is really bad, e.g. if black gets a stone at g7 then f9 net would work. Also black could try starting at b14 or c11 to make a combo where c8 works better.

Also if white submissively answers like this, some people were talking about how b's shape is weak at e5. But the trouble is 1-2 is already a good exchange (outside for inside) so if you just crudely push and cut black is happy to sacrifice and push from the outside to develop a much bigger area than the measly ~10 points you get from capturing 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 6 7 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #22 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:11 am 
Dies in gote
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@uberdude

You mean, after :b23: W could just tenuki, because B's position in the lower left is not strong enough to take away W's corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . Y . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If B comes in at A or B, White just cuts accordingly? Also, as Joaz pointed out the knights move at E-6 is still cuttable, too :scratch:

Maybe i should dare to be more fierce in my games :rambo:

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 Post subject: Re: Review Request 8k-9k
Post #23 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:17 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 342
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Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
No, I wasn't suggesting tenuki after 23, it's pretty severe when black comes in (though you probably won't die, just black will trash your left side). My point was the reasoning "it's ok to patiently defend at c7 because I can still push and cut off e6 later so e6 didn't gain that much" is faulty logic, because pushing and cutting e6 doesn't mean black didn't get much: he gets a lot of useful forcing moves on the outside by sacrificing e6 (white can't easily tenuki the pushes because then f9 hane is super painful, thanks to e6). Instead of c7 though answering 23 at d8 looks better. c7 is a move you might see in joseki books when white's group ends at c9, in which case d8 answer might leave some problems like c11 checking extension being annoying whilst c7 doesn't, but with the support of c12 etc above white can try to play slightly bigger and not so flat all on 3rd line.

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