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Jika vs Kirby

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=16888

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Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:31 pm
by Kirby
I've enjoyed Jika's threads, and the questions he's had about various problems he's been working on. We chat a little bit over PM, and agreed to do a Malkovich game.

More than a competitive type game, this is intended to be educational. So while I am going to publish my thoughts about the game in hide tags, Jika is free to look at the hide tags, and read what I've written, before making his move.

So without further ado, here is the beginning of our game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



In a 9-stone handicap game, black has an advantage. So white has to wait to gain points, little by little, until things even about a bit more. If black utilizes the handicap well, white cannot win.

In some cases, this turns out to be somewhat of a psychological game; if white plays in a way that black is familiar with, black can answer correctly, and white has a hard time getting benefit.

From that perspective, I could consider playing a move that's a little less common than the knight's move approach. For example, this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The objective in playing in a less-than-common way here would not be to play there because the move is objectively better. Rather, it'd be in hopes that black won't respond properly.

But I don't want to play that way today, for two reasons:
1. I want to play in a patient way. At the start of the game, it's 9 black stones to my 1 stone that I play - the relative difference in stones will decrease as the game goes on, so I am not in a huge rush to play in a weird way in an attempt to get an advantage.

2. The purpose of this game is not for me to win, but to give Jika some more practical experience. From that perspective, playing in a common way is probably more beneficial for teaching.

---

I'll also say that I very briefly imagined playing in the 3-3, given all of the AI 3-3 openings. But that would very clearly be bad here, because black has nice extensions on each side, so the influence would be great for black. Even if white plays in a more modern way, it's hard to imagine that black's group is in any way weak. It really has great influence, so 3-3 would be a bad choice for me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 8 6 4 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Have a fun game, Jika!

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:24 am
by EdLee
Good, Kirby, Jika. :tmbup:

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:19 am
by Jika
First, thank you, Kirby!

Reading your comment made me laugh, because it assumes that I would be able to make good use of the handicap stones - and that I know joseki, which I don't!
So, my tactics is going to be to confuse you by playing moves that are so stupid that you will spend time wondering what evil plan might be behind them :lol:

Thank you for deciding to play "traditional" moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move is dedicated to all of you who tried to explain pincers to me in my previous thread.
However, I do not know if this is a good idea or if I'd better not respond there but secure territory elsewhere. If I did not respond there, would Kirby have played on there to make a base, or attacked elsewhere? I have no idea if on such a big board he is going to attack elsewhere now or if this will be a first battle :shock:

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:29 am
by EdLee
For (my own) sanity, the move numbers:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:32 am
by EdLee
For Jika:

Jika, You can read this after you've played :b2: (which you have):
:b2: This move is dedicated to all of you who tried to explain pincers to me in my previous thread.
However, I do not know if this is a good idea or if I'd better not respond there but secure territory elsewhere.
Instead of listing all the things to consider before each move, which is impractical, just a few, for now:
  • Is this the biggest move ? ( Are you sure ? :) )
  • Did you check :black:'s liberties ?
  • Did you check :white:'s liberties ?
  • Anything in imminent danger ?

Let's study the whole board after :w1: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Board at :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Question for you: is :w1: already pincered ? Click 'Show' here to see the answer:
Yes, :w1: is already pincered, by your two :bc: stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

If you add another stone, like this...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
... what you're saying is, "I'm going to use three stones, :bt: :bt: :bt: , to do the job already accomplished by my existing two stones :bc: :bc: ."

This is not to say your :b2: is a bad move.
But part of answering the (recurring) question, "Is this the biggest move?" is to ask yourself, "is this the most efficient move?"
And the 3-stone :bt: :bt: :bt: pincer situation versus 2-stone pincer :bc: :bc: is a hint for you ( in case this shape repeats later, in this game or in the future :) ).
If I did not respond there, would Kirby have played on there to make a base, or attacked elsewhere? I have no idea if on such a big board he is going to attack elsewhere now or if this will be a first battle
Good questions. Let's return to your checklist:
  • Anything in imminent danger? ==> Any weak groups?
The answer to this question will help answer your question about attacks.
Why? Here's a hint:

For something to be attackable it must be weak.
Therefore you must answer these questions:
  • Are there any weak :black: groups after :w1: ?
  • Are there any weak :white: groups after :w1: ?
Clear 'Show' here to see the answers:
After :w1:, there are no weak :black: groups anywhere on the board.
After :w1:, there is exactly one weak :white: group on the board.

So:
After :w1:, can :white: attack anything ? (No.)
After :w1:, can :black: attack anything ? (Yes.)

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:07 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Jika, your move shows good fighting spirit. :rambo:

Jika wrote:This move is dedicated to all of you who tried to explain pincers to me in my previous thread.
However, I do not know if this is a good idea or if I'd better not respond there but secure territory elsewhere.


There are many ways to skin a cat. :)

If I did not respond there, would Kirby have played on there to make a base, or attacked elsewhere?


1) Kirby is not attacking, you are. :)

2) If you had played elsewhere, Kirby would not have made a base for his stone here. That would have been too slow. In general, White in a high handicap game will leave groups weak, in the hope that Black will not be able to kill them or make territory by attacking them.

Kirby would not attack elsewhere because he has nothing to attack elsewhere. He might have attacked in the top right corner, by making a double approach. Like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Double approach, Black cuts sector line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you had played elsewhere, like on the other side of the board, Kirby probably would have attacked the top right corner with a double approach. Here I have showed the one space high approach. The jump attachment, :b4:, is a usual reply. We can mentally draw a line between :w1: and :w3:. :b4: cuts that sector line, thus keeping :w1: and :w3: from strengthening each other by connecting. By keeping the White stones separate, Black aims to attack one of them or the other, or if Black is lucky, both. :rambo: The watchword is Divide and Conquer. :)

I have no idea if on such a big board he is going to attack elsewhere now or if this will be a first battle :shock:


Oh, there will be more fights. ;) Don't worry about the small fights. It's OK to lose (sacrifice) a few stones, it's not generally a big deal to capture or kill a few stones. What you do not want to do is to lose a big fight. If you are getting the worst of a fight, consider sacrificing your stones, making some strength by threatening to save them, and then taking sente and playing elsewhere. Dying in sente is often good, dying in gote is bad. ;)

In general you should try to kill White groups (not just an isolated stone or two). You are unlikely to succeed, given Kirby's strength, but you have to learn what works and what doesn't. Even if you don't kill a group, you may be able to profit from forcing White to make small life in gote.

Remember, you own the board right now. Don't worry too much about what White will do. Your large handicap will allow you to control the play. Do so. Kirby is good enough to try to wrest control from you. Don't let that happen. Keep cool. You may have to reply locally so some of his moves. Do so, but don't let him dictate the play. Remember, you are in control. In each skirmish strive to keep or take sente, and play somewhere else, either to attack a weak White group or to build territory. :)

Good luck!

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:16 am
by EdLee
For Jika:
To highlight something mentioned twice:
post 5 wrote:After :w1:, there are no weak :black: groups anywhere on the board.
After :w1:, there is exactly one weak :white: group on the board.

So:
After :w1:, can :white: attack anything ? No.
After :w1:, can :black: attack anything ? Yes.
post 6 wrote:Kirby would not attack elsewhere because he has nothing to attack elsewhere.
Many beginners miss this point.

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:50 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Jika's move is not the most common response that I see in 9-stone games, but I like it. The move puts significant pressure on the white stone.

A more "textbook" way of playing is like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The theory here is two-fold:
1. :b1:, above, induces white to add an extra stone to help white's group. In doing so, the stakes are raised, and it's harder for white to give up the (now) two stones on the right side. In classic go lingo, many people refer to this as making white heavy. The idea is, since white has more stones invested, it's harder for white to be flexible and choose various options - some of which may include giving up the single stone.

2. The bigger, and probably more important, idea is that of attacking white. In a 9-stone handicap game, white has fewer stones on the board. So black has an advantage. And in an advantaged position, black should be able to get more profit than white. Attacking the white stones is a good way to do this.

---

Now, coming back to Jika's move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


1. Jika's move doesn't do much in terms of #1, above, making white heavy: there's only a single white stone there, so I may feel free to choose a variation to, e.g. sacrifice the stone, or just play elsewhere.

2. Jika's move does, however, do somewhat well in terms of #2, above. It puts pressure on my single white stone - the space there is narrow, and black threatens to take a lot. Here are some examples:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OR

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note that in this last diagram, it's even better for black - white is heavy AND has very little space to do much.

---

If I were to critique Jika's move, I'd say that it may not have the absolute greatest efficiency compared to some other options. That's because the marked stone, below, already puts pressure on white:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So adding another stone on that side, while strong, concentrates strength on the right side of the board.

All of this being said, I like Jika's move - it shows some good intuition, even if it's not a "textbook" reply. Furthermore, it's evidence that the move is Jika's move, and not one that Jika just read about somewhere.

---

OK, enough about Jika's move. What are my options as white?

One thought is to jump out to avoid being enclosed:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This type of jumping move helps my single white stone, and it keeps the marked black groups split. So, it has some benefit.

The down side comes when I consider how black will likely respond. If I jump out, black can naturally make territory, while keeping pressure on my white stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . B . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked black move, above, makes it so that my two white stones *still* don't have a base, all the while, black is making more points.

This idea is not terrible, but it is a little painful when I compare to, say, a 4-stone game, where I can counter attack.

Here's an example of the same type of position, but just with 4 stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the position is as above, the jump is a bit more viable, because, while black can make the same kind of points while keeping pressure on me, I can counter-attack white's pincer stone.

Here's an example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or, if I'm feeling ambitious, I could even consider trying to make things more complicated by doing a counter pincer like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this case, the marked black stone feels a bit of pressure. White still feels pressure from not having a base, but black has pressure, too:

Code: Select all

* pressure on white, no pressure on black == hard for white
* pressure on black, no pressure on white == hard for black
* no pressure on black or white == OK for both
* pressure on everybody == OK for both :-)


Thinking from this perspective, in the 4-stone game, jumping out allows me to pressure black, so in doing so, the relative pressure that I feel as white is reduced.

But in this 9-stone game...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In a position like this, there is still pressure on white, but no pressure on black, due to the marked helping stone.

So let's put that jumping move on the back burner for awhile.

In an even game, it's common to play 3-3 pretty early in the game. What happens if I do it here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C C C C C C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C C C C C C . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . C C C C C C 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X C C C C C X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black may choose the other direction, too, but even in the simple diagram above, black has tons of potential on top. Black is strong early in the game with a nice wall, and white just has a few points in the corner.

It'll be a hard game on white.

---

What's another option? Let's revisit the formulas I put up earlier:

Code: Select all

* pressure on white, no pressure on black == hard for white
* pressure on black, no pressure on white == hard for black
* no pressure on black or white == OK for both
* pressure on everybody == OK for both :-)


I have only a single stone on the board, and black has ten. So I'm definitely feeling the pressure. Hence, it's difficult for me to get to the "no pressure on black or white" situation.

How about the "pressure on everybody" situation? It's still very hard to put much pressure on black. But how can I make black have a weak group?

Well, black has put an extra stone on the right side; the right side is pretty strong right now - hard to imagine putting pressure on those two stones with just one extra stone myself.

But in playing on the right side, black opted to *not* put a stone on the top side. So that's black's biggest weak area right now. Therefore, the easiest stone to put pressure on is the 4-4 stone in the top right.

So I'll do that:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . 3 . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It puts a bit of pressure on the black stone, so it should help things get a bit closer to equilibrium.

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:16 am
by Bill Spight
@ Kirby

I told Jika about cutting sector lines.
Just so's you know. ;)

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:28 am
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:@ Kirby

I told Jika about cutting sector lines.
Just so's you know. ;)


Sounds good. I told Jika before we started, that it's OK to read my (and others') comments or anything that's hidden, because we are mainly playing to get Jika more game experience, rather than being competitive.

The hide tags I'm putting on my posts is mainly for the purpose of consolidating analysis.

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:35 pm
by EdLee
For Jika:
A lot of information written for you to read ( may be too much :blackeye: ).

When you look for a plan given the whole board position at :w3: :
Back to your checklist:
  • Biggest move ? ( Are you sure ? :) )
  • Check :black: liberties ?
  • Check :white: liberties ?
  • Danger ?
  • Weak groups ? Yes ? What to do ?
  • Weak groups ? No ? What to do ?

There may be more than one biggest move, especially with a 9-stone handicap. How to choose ? Think of a plan, then click 'Show':
Go through all your checklist items again.
Pick a plan that is simple and good, if possible.


Just for reference, another point mentioned twice:
post 5 wrote:I use three stones, :bt: :b2: :bt: , to do the job already accomplished by my existing two stones :bc: :bc: .
post 8 wrote: :b2: may not have the ... greatest efficiency ... because the [middle-right- :black: ] already puts pressure on :w1:

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:33 am
by Jika
@ all:

Uh, wow :o !

I really like getting so much information, but right now I'm feeling overwhelmed.
I'm feeling pressure to understand your replies, which I don't (mostly).

I'm anxious to do something stupid as my next move, and everyone goes "Didn't she read my post?? I won't write again!".

I'll also PM Kirby about our arrangement that I may read his hidden text.

I'm not sure if it is better (less confusing for me) to make a move, or try to understand all your posts first.

Please keep in mind that I'm not familiar with go lingo:
By "attack elsewhere" I meant "play in a different corner or side to threaten to make territory there".
I am attacking?? Oops. It felt like I was defending...
So, I might seem to disregard all your advice because I simply do not know what "pressure" means, what moves are attacking, and what "dense" is (I'm dense enough to think that having a dense group of stones is good).

I know how to make move numbers in the forum diagrams.
However, I want to try variants of our game in an editor, and Chrome Web Go Board seems to be the only one compatible with Eidogo.
However, whenever I place a new stone there, all the move numbers are deleted, which means I have to enter all of them again. Ideas?
But if I edit the diagram manually, there might be no need to upload?

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:47 am
by jlt
@Jika: don't be afraid to make mistakes, everybody knows that you will so don't worry. Stronger players will show you better moves, so that you learn from your mistakes. You won't understand everything now, but in a few months, hopefully this thread will become a nice manual on "how to play with handicap".

(I just hope that this Malkovich game doesn't last 10 years...)

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:08 am
by Jika
@jlt: Thank you!
Kirby said I may take as much time as I want - but I'm not aiming to break the record of longest Malkovich game ever! (And Kirby will make sure I won't ;-) )

@EdLee: I've written a note to myself with your checklist, but though I looked up "big" at SL (Oba), I do not understand what it means (Bill seems to use "large" there, and are big, large and fast synonymous?
Moreover, with such a handicap, I'm at a loss what "big" means... Sorry!

@all: I'm in the dilemma what to do if posts contain ideas what my next good move might be (like crossing sector lines...)
While it is very helpful to see them, I don't want to copy suggestions, but I'm feeling bad if I don't (refusing good moves).
Advice how to deal with that?

Re: Jika vs Kirby

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:28 am
by jlt
Just play a move and explain your idea. Stronger players will tell you

1) If the move you played correctly applies your idea

2) If there was a better idea.

Don't worry if your idea is completely wrong, your understanding will improve when people point out your misconceptions. To improve, you need to have your mistakes corrected, and to have your mistakes corrected, you need to make mistakes!
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