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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #41 Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 6:51 am 
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Finally I got promoted to Tygem 1k, after 17W and 13L. Need to work on elementary tesuji, as I missed the move in the following position.

Position #24: White to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . 3 X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


:w1: threatens a, so Black needs to respond at :b2:, and then :w3: captures the cutting stone.


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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #42 Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:15 pm 
Gosei
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It seems that there is freedom in the order of play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black resists
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . . . . . . . X 3 1 . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . O X O O 5 |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #43 Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:23 am 
Judan

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Knotwilg, I wouldn't want to give black the choice to trade corner for side because it makes the top side open and when White gets the corner Black's side group is still not 100% alive (s13).

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #44 Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 3:41 am 
Honinbo

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In the FWIW department, there is also a loose ladder. ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Loose ladder
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . O . . . . . 9 8 5 3 . . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . 7 6 4 X O O . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #45 Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:04 am 
Gosei
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Uberdude wrote:
Knotwilg, I wouldn't want to give black the choice to trade corner for side because it makes the top side open and when White gets the corner Black's side group is still not 100% alive (s13).


I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #46 Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 4:06 am 
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Position #25. Black to play.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . . , . . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . X . X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . O . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . X X X . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . X . X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Possible variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White is disconnected
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . . , . . O X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X 3 4 X . X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O . . . O 5 1 . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O 2 O . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , X . X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . X X X . X . O . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . X . X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . O . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #47 Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 am 
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Position #26: White to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . O . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O . X X X O O . O X . O . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Katago's answer
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X X X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . . a X . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . O . . . X X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O . X X X O O . O X . O . O O . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . X . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White needs to reduce Black's moyo. White won't have any difficulty escaping since Black will need at some point to spend a move at "a", and since the ponnuki provides some support. In addition, Black's wall doesn't have eyes yet, so Black will also need to defend. White might even get a chance to play a big endgame move at "b" later.

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #48 Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:16 am 
Oza

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Quote:
I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)


Is it possible that what bots show in this sense is unreliable? I am mindful of Bill strictures to remember that bots are only really interested in win rates. In other words, they are interested only in the destination, not how they get there. I assume it may be possible for two lines, one with an inferior move order but where the relevant moves are eventually made nonetheless in both lines, to give the same evaluation (because it's the same end position).

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #49 Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:39 am 
Honinbo

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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
I like the first order of moves better too, for the reasons you mention. (But the AI said so!)


Is it possible that what bots show in this sense is unreliable? I am mindful of Bill strictures to remember that bots are only really interested in win rates. In other words, they are interested only in the destination, not how they get there. I assume it may be possible for two lines, one with an inferior move order but where the relevant moves are eventually made nonetheless in both lines, to give the same evaluation (because it's the same end position).
(Emphasis mine.)

To be clear, this is about actual win rates, not win rate estimates. I.e., the bots are trained to win games. Humans use the win rate estimates that the bots produce to compare positions and plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #50 Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:56 am 
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Position #26. White to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #51 Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:53 am 
Tengen
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Trying to get in here before anyone else, as these have looked fun and I've gotten perhaps 40% of them so far!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Critical groups
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X 2 . 3 . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These three groups all look critically urgent somehow. Separating Black feels good to me, so my first thought was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Cut first, think later!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 7 . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O 5 X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 O X a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 1 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The problem seems to be simply that :b2: @ a means White hasn't achieved very much. Knowing that there are counter cuts that don't work for Black doesn't mean Black has to go anywhere near them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Crude sense of humour
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 2 . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O 1 X 6 8 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 5 3 4 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This lovely uber-crude line (I tend to use this to identify what I care about the most) just cripples my own top group and doesn't successfully cut anyway, so perhaps something more subtle?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O a X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . b 4 3 5 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Does White win this? Looks ok
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X 4 5 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 7 3 6 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 8 b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 2 9 a c . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 4 2 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 2 4 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O 5 X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think these are all probably playable... reading is hard


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc My guess
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O . X . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This post by topazg was liked by: jlt
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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #52 Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:28 pm 
Tengen
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@jlt

looking at your hide I realised I'd got the right point this time, but does it succeed in killing the top black group? It looks like it does to me, but if it doesn't, all my justifications for picking the move disappear quite quickly!

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #53 Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:12 pm 
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@topazg:

Here are two variations shown by KataGo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 4 . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O 3 X 2 5 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 9 7 8 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X 1 0 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Variation 1, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . a 9 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . O X X X X . . O 8 . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X W . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O X X O . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . O O X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X 4 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . b X 1 3 5 7 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After a, Black disconnects two groups with b and then White lives in gote with c.
So Black's top group is dead but White is disconnected, cannot save the marked stone and gets a weakish group in the center.

Second variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Second variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X 8 . O . X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O 7 X . 0 . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 2 . 6 O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 O X 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 4 9 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Second variation, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X X . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . O . X W . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . X O . O X 5 . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X X . O 3 X . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X X . X O O X 2 X 4 . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X 1 X O . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . O X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X X X O . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So White doesn't kill Black but is connected, saves the marked stone and has a strong position in the center.

Needless to say, reading these variations is very difficult, but at least I can try to add the clamp :w1: to my library of shapes.

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 Post subject: Re: Shapes to remember (SDK level)
Post #54 Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:34 am 
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Position #27: Black to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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