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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #21 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:36 am 
Gosei
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This is easier than the ones before. Black needs to save 2 cutting stones with an empty triangle. Then White pushes up, cutting off 3 stones from Black's area of development. This game is White's.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #22 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:26 pm 
Tengen
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Black plays K2 and wins.

My general assessment is that white has two weak groups, black has one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X W W . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . W X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't claim that the following diagrams are conclusive, nor even accurate. I post them to illustrate the general idea that when white saves one group, the other is in trouble. I'll leave it to LZ to figure out the exact tactics.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 . . . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 . W X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 5 . W X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 0 X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 . 8 9 X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 7 W X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 5 . W X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 . 8 . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 7 4 . W X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 5 . W X . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #23 Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:55 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B B O O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . B O O B . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . O B . B . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer white. These black stones will be a liability.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O B . X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I prefer white. Black has to play :bc:, then white has more solid territory as well as sente for the fight on the bottom side.

But I would never assign a ~90% win rate to one side in these positions like Elf is so keen to.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #24 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:59 am 
Gosei
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Reacting to Joaz:

Quote:
Black plays K2 and wins.
My general assessment is that white has two weak groups, black has one.


I see it differently: one of these two White groups are two low stones, providing useful aji but expendable. The other one, which is the one to save will put pressure on Black's 3 stones, which are not expendable, while impacting Black's only area for growth.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . b 4 . W X X O O a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . W X 2 X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


B4 probably captures the stones, but the capture is not big and the stones provide useful aji at A or B. I don't really know how to use WHite's sente either, but I don't think Black can match White' three corners and komi. Probably WHite just has to make shape in the centre to control the game.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #25 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:48 am 
Gosei

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Dusk Eagle wrote:
But I would never assign a ~90% win rate to one side in these positions like Elf is so keen to.

To put "90%" in terms some of us are more comfortable with, KataGo estimates the score of the first position Bill posed (the only one I fed it) at around +5 for the side that's ahead, and puts the win rate in the 60s (as the other bots do).


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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #26 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:19 am 
Gosei
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edited to include the answer to Joaz' fine inclusion of a probe

(don't know if Bill still likes it :) )


Last edited by Knotwilg on Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #27 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:20 am 
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dfan wrote:
Dusk Eagle wrote:
But I would never assign a ~90% win rate to one side in these positions like Elf is so keen to.

To put "90%" in terms some of us are more comfortable with, KataGo estimates the score of the first position Bill posed (the only one I fed it) at around +5 for the side that's ahead, and puts the win rate in the 60s (as the other bots do).


Is it possible that there is a hardware issue at play? (For example, if the elf evaluation is on a machine without a GPU, but the others are using a GPU)

Otherwise it is headscratching to see strong bots vary that much.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #28 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:46 am 
Honinbo

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Elf usually has pretty high variation in winrates compared to other bots, so it’s not surprising to me that LZ is around 60 and Elf is around 90. I would be more surprised if Elf were around 70 and LZ were at 40, because that’d be a different interpretation of who had the lead.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #29 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:08 am 
Gosei

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mhlepore wrote:
dfan wrote:
To put "90%" in terms some of us are more comfortable with, KataGo estimates the score of the first position Bill posed (the only one I fed it) at around +5 for the side that's ahead, and puts the win rate in the 60s (as the other bots do).

Is it possible that there is a hardware issue at play? (For example, if the elf evaluation is on a machine without a GPU, but the others are using a GPU)

The KataGo evaluation was with approximately the same number of playouts as the ELF evaluation.
Quote:
Otherwise it is headscratching to see strong bots vary that much.

ELF is very, very opinionated. It is not unusual for it to give a position a 90% win rate while other strong bots give it a win rate more like 65%.

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #30 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:41 am 
Honinbo

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dfan wrote:
mhlepore wrote:
Otherwise it is headscratching to see strong bots vary that much.

ELF is very, very opinionated. It is not unusual for it to give a position a 90% win rate while other strong bots give it a win rate more like 65%.


Since, as players approach perfection, their winrate estimates will approach 100% or 0%, we might say that Elf is very, very self-confident. :cool: ;)

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #31 Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:46 am 
Honinbo

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #32 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:13 pm 
Tengen
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Bump.

Bill, are we going to get an 'official' answer to #4?


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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #33 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:09 pm 
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Game 4.

Oteai game between Fujisawa Kuranosuke, 9 dan, and Takagawa Kaku, 7 dan, 1950-04-12a. Fujisawa was the first non-Meijin 9 dan; later he changed his name to Hosai. Fujisawa played White, with no komi.

After :w30: Elf gives White an estimated winrate of 88% (144.2k playouts), assuming, as always, 7.5 komi and area scoring.

Takagawa was only 2 years from his winning streak of 8 Honinbo titles, and was known for his skill at the opening, so I expected that he would be ahead, even with no komi, but Fujisawa cleaned Takagawa's clock. He was a 9 dan, after all. :cool:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Fujisawa Kuranosuke (W) - Takagawa, Elf's mainline
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X b c . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 7 . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O 9 5 6 . O X X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a 8 . O 1 3 X X 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fujisawa played :w32: at 40. Through :w34: Elf played as Dieter did. If :b35: is at 36, :w36: is at 38. Then :b37: at a, :w38: at 35. In the main variation from there the result is a ko that White takes first. White ignores Black's threat at b, allowing Black to descend to c. Elf rates :b35: at 36 as 89% for White (29.6k playouts). The 1% difference is within Elf's margin of error, I believe.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . O X X O O 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 6 O . O X X X X O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 Elf's mainline, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O X . . . X X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X O . O X X O O O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O O . O X X X X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


----

OC, since this is a no komi game, we cannot assume that Takagawa played badly. :) And even by Elf's reckoning he made only two sizable errors up to :w30:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Play joseki, lose 13%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b17: was joseki, but Elf does not like it. Elf also considers the :bc: extensions to be minor mistakes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Bot joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b17: was also a joseki play at the time, but I believe that :w18: - :b21: are new to the bot era.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Make thickness, lose 14%
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O X X 2 4 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 7 . 3 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b25: is a thick play. The result is the sequence up to :b31:. Elf considers :b25: to lose 14%. Whether that is so with no komi is another question.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Elf's recommended variation (115.2k playouts)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 4 X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 5 X O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 1 O X X 6 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 2 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This way Black gets territory and White gets thickness. Surely playable by Black with no komi.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis


Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #34 Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:34 pm 
Honinbo

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I'll aim to add a couple of games per week, even if I can't keep up the commentary at that rate. :)

Game 5.

After :w34: Elf estimates a winrate of 90% (26.8k playouts, area scoring, 7.5 komi) for one player. Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Black to play.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , X X . . . O . O O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . O X . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #35 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:19 am 
Honinbo

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Is this one too complicated?

BTW, I have finished my discussion of Game 3 at #19 ( https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=248660#p248660 ).

I shall reserve this post for my discussion of Game 5.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #36 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:24 am 
Lives with ko

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Bill Spight wrote:
Is this one too complicated?

Well, none of these are actually easy - even 90% from ELF is probably just a few points difference. But I'll go ahead and say Black is better - not sure what White has achieved on the left side, and I have a feeling the AI wouldn't like L17. With Black to move it seems like B should be able to achieve a good result at the bottom.


This post by bernds was liked by: Bill Spight
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Post #37 Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:54 am 
Honinbo

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In keeping with doing two per week, here is the next game. :) I think it may be better suited to human evaluation than some of the others, as there is no obvious complex fight going on.

As always, assume area scoring and 7½ pt. komi. After :b37: Elf estimates the winrate of one player as 87½% (36.6k playouts). Which player is it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White to play. Who is better?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Enjoy! :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

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 Post subject: Re: How is your positional judgement?
Post #38 Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:50 am 
Gosei
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Game 5
black crosscuts and leads. More later


Game 6
white caps and leads (shoulder hit too heavy)

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