Life In 19x19

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:04 pm**

This showed up in a recent game I played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c What's next? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess. I suppose I could have pincered White's approach to the 4-4, but I didn't want to just ignore such a brazen bump up against my corner.

What I'd like to know is, what are some common approaches and responses to the 3-4 point keima corner enclosure? All I can find are joseki related to the 3-4 point, without the enclosure already in place. How might I start thinking about this situation?

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:44 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 6 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 5 8 . . . 0 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:18 pm**

The reason you can't find any information on "approaching" a 3-4 enclosure is that it is strong. Approaching a group implies that you want to play stones near it, and playing close to strong groups (aka thickness) is rarely the correct direction.

If you do find yourself playing near a 3-4 enclosure you usually should play some sort of attachment or shoulder hit, with the intent of overstrengthening the enclosure. In Gomoto's sequence, white gets a few stones outside and takes an extension, while black takes the corner really really thoroughly. This is a pretty standard idea. The thought is that if white had extended without attaching first, black would approach the group with an extension from the corner. If black plays such a move now, it will be attacked instead of building.

It sounds like a good result for white, but if W never pressured from the outside like this, the enclosure does still have some invasion aji, way down the line. Black got rid of that, so it's actually a pretty even trade.

Once attachment style fighting starts, just do your best to keep your stones either strong or well-sacrificed. The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby, so I don't think it's really important to memorize any more than the line Gomoto gave.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:43 pm**

You could browse some of the possible sequences at http://josekipedia.com/#path:qdtt

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:51 pm**

I got muscled out of the corner. ... It was a mess...
How might I start thinking about this situation?

The correct sequence is highly dependent on the rest of the other stones nearby

Hi Applebaps,

To reiterate existing replies: studying contact fights is very helpful. Examples: Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights; Go problems, life-and-death problems, tesuji problems; (human or AI) sequence references, with emphasis on local techniques. (Global evaluation is of course always important, too; another beast.)

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:05 pm**

Applebaps wrote:This showed up in a recent game I played.

$$c What's next?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c What's next? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
In my actual game, I got muscled out of the corner. I don't even want to show you the moves, it was embarrassing. It started with Black hane at a and then it led to a ko, it was just a mess.

I'm curious, now. I'll try to guess what happened..

Something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c me guessing $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 8 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c me guessing $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 C O O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If that *is* what happened, you might consider this alternative:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c one possible option $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 X 4 7 . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:51 am**

Very helpful posts, everyone, thank you!

Got my work cut out for me, then, as usual.

Posted: **Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:26 pm**

There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.

For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure

ATN

Posted: **Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:56 pm**

atn wrote:There is a huge work done on sensei library for such questions.

For example, I found this one: https://senseis.xmp.net/?35AttachmentAg ... rEnclosure

ATN

There are at least two books about enclosure josekis.

Posted: **Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:19 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c How about b? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 4 c . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With black a or b a simple response is white pulling back at c. Black b unsettles white while defending the corner whereas a lets white easily turn the probe into an extra long extension. With both a and b white can simply tenuki leaving a lot of aji, or sacrifice

, for this reason iron pillars are a common defense.

Evaluating the simple response is important, it is not great if the opponent can gain an edge by straightforward solid play. In this case pushing along a gives white a base while connecting with

and leaves the corner open. With b there is no sliding into the corner, no base for white and a easy split of

and

because of the connection underneath.

Life In 19x19

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