Life In 19x19

What do you make of this:

"With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts," Lee told Yonhap News Agency this week. "Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated."

Source: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/11/2 ... up_271119/

I know it's a quote out of context and one that would have been translated but it does seem like he's saying that there's no longer any point in trying to be the strongest human -- on the surface of things, at least. That seems like a very odd note to choose when you retire -- particularly if you were one of the all time great players of the game.

Didn't he also adopt very A.I.-like moves in his own games, immediately following his match against AlphaGo, and, indeed, win quite a bit with those new ideas?

See also viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16486&p=251006#p251006

There's now 50 humans stronger than Lee Sedol on goratings, so the fact there is a computer beyond the top human doesn't really seem that relevant, other than perhaps reducing his motivation (but even if he was motivated could he regain his strength?). In the 21st century a top player no longer being so strong when he is 36 is totally normal, AI revolution or not; in fact for Lee to still be in the top 5 players in the world in 2016 in his 30s was quite remarkable in this age of professional go dominated by players in their early 20s or even younger. He's also had various disputes with the KBA so whilst the "AI bumps off human master" story might be nice for the casual reader I don't think it's particularly accurate.

Charlie wrote: Didn't he also adopt very A.I.-like moves in his own games, immediately following his match against AlphaGo, and, indeed, win quite a bit with those new ideas?

No, I would say he has not embraced AI style moves in his games as much as other top players, and after the AlphaGo match he won 9 games in a row, 5 of which were against top pros and the rest lower pros like Andy Liu who he could beat in his sleep. He has had several longer win streaks in his career so that wasn't particularly remarkable.

I'm surprised that I keep hearing this sentiment from go players. (In Lee Sedol's case it may not be the full story, but I've heard similar words from others.) Human chess players were overtaken by computers more than 20 years ago, and the chess scene is still alive and well. And we don't see Olympic runners quitting just because they can't go faster than motorbikes.

Lee Sedol isn't only retiring because of computers, though, a lot of people seem to be taking it that way. Last spring he already mentioned that he'd retire before the end of 2019, and at that time, the tone was more focused toward the younger human players he'd have a hard time keeping up with. He's also butt heads with the KBA in the past, so it's not just about playing go. And then there's also his family, which he can spend more time with now.

Mr. Sedol looks young. is he moving to a different career or becoming only a family man?

Allen wrote:Mr. Sedol

In Asian names, the family name comes first. Sedol is Mr. Lee's given name

xela wrote:I'm surprised that I keep hearing this sentiment from go players. (In Lee Sedol's case it may not be the full story, but I've heard similar words from others.) Human chess players were overtaken by computers more than 20 years ago, and the chess scene is still alive and well. And we don't see Olympic runners quitting just because they can't go faster than motorbikes.

There may well be any number of chess players who gave up or lost motivation with the rise of computers but we don't hear from/about them anymore. It's the same reason the stock market and Las Vegas seem to be full of winners. The losers DO "go gentle into that good night".

If Lee Sedol really does disappear from the Go world (which I personally doubt, he seems too energetic for that), it's the young stars who remain and successfully adapt that will define the response to the bots.

I saw an interview with Lee Sedol where they chat a bit about his retirement. Indeed, there are various reasons for his retirement, but AI does seem to be a strong one. It’s difficult to capture the entire sentiment of the interview (I don’t want to misrepresent due to my imperfect Korean), but I can say that it may be difficult to understand the perspective of a top pro as an amateur. To us, we can enjoy go as a hobby. We want to win and improve, but it’s not the end of the world if we lose - certainly not if we aren’t number one.

But to some pros out there, being number one in the world has a lot more importance than any of us will ever understand. And apparently, some of that meaning is lost with computers, at least for some pros.

Before, I had some feeling that Lee Sedol would be back in a few months. Now, I think he’s gone as a pro go competitor for good.

ez4u wrote:There may well be any number of chess players who gave up or lost motivation with the rise of computers but we don't hear from/about them anymore. It's the same reason the stock market and Las Vegas seem to be full of winners. The losers DO "go gentle into that good night".

Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.

Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.

Chess may not be a reliable comparison here. Top players there can continue for a long time because they can bulk out their tournament scores with easy draws. Go players can't. Most lucrative chess tournaments are invitation events with the RSVPs going to chess players. The go equivalent is veteran's tournaments which feature very few games (e.g. the recent Yongzi cup with just four players, so two games max.) and so not much in the way of game fees. In normal go tournaments they have to work their way up through preliminaries armed with an industrial strength fly swatter to skelp the teeming brats away.

Yi Se-tol is at an age now where he is on the cusp of being a veteran. In Korea, in particular, veterans have already been squeezed out of tournaments almost completely (viz. Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yu Ch'ang-hyeok. I imagine they all sit there in dread as they see hordes of young players coming up behind them, only now they are armed with the latest AI research.

The older players can do the research as well, of course, but what you lose as you get older is not brain power or knowledge - indeed you can even feel you are improving in that regard. What you lose is mental energy.

So, even without knowing what's going through Yi Se-tol's mind, I can easily imagine he sees a bleak future even without AI to rub salt in the wounds. And I'm afraid I have to tell him it only gets worse, as the bits start dropping off...

On the other hand, I was Scottish dancing last week with a 90-year-old lady. It's pretty vigorous, balls-of the-feet stuff, three hours at a time. She told me the only trouble was getting out of the bed in the mornings. I recognised the sentiment. In the evenings you get to meet real humans with real names, not bots, and that's enough to warm the cockles of your cold, cold heart.

And I didn't even need to get out of bed to write this post!

Right. Plenty of reasons why go players may reasonably want to call it a day before turning 40, while their chess counterparts can happily (?) compete into their 60s. I just think "AI ruined it for me" isn't the real story here.

In one of his videos Blackie aka Kim Seungjun 9p mentioned Lee's retirement. He said the the #1 reason was the KBA/Pro association dispute stuff, but as Lee didn't want to expand on that when asked in an interview he wouldn't either (and also he's an interested party so it pays to be diplomatic). #2 was not being the top player anymore and AI at the top theme.

John Fairbairn wrote:

Indeed this might happen at some levels of the game, but in chess it's not visible at the level of recent world no. 1s quitting and citing AI as a principal reason. Chess's watershed moment was in 1997, but the top players of that year all kept going for some time afterwards.

In Korea, in particular, veterans have already been squeezed out of tournaments almost completely (viz. Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yu Ch'ang-hyeok. I imagine they all sit there in dread as they see hordes of young players coming up behind them, only now they are armed with the latest AI research.

I generally agree with the sentiment that, all other things being equal, it can get tougher to win regularly as you get older. That being said, Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters?? --> https://sports.v.daum.net/v/20191226232454811). Granted, it's not like it's a big, widely known tournament, but at least it tells me that Lee Changho's career isn't totally over, yet.

Lee Changho still seems to have some gumption - he just won some international tournament (the Baoshan International Go Masters

This is a senior tournament. The players were Lee Changho, Takao Shinji, Chang Hao, Ma Xiaochun.