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 Post subject: Noles Study Journal
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 am 
Dies in gote
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Due to the current situation in Europe I'm having a little more time for playing Go again. I decided to set myself a goal, which is by now becoming 5 Kyu on every server i play on, which is KGS, OGS, IGS and Tygem. I hit the 5k mark on KGS yesterday, after playing quite successful for a few games in a row and then switched over to OGS to continue on my quest. I guess I'll have quite hard time there, not only because KGS ranks seem to be a little weak nowadays but also because it is a little hard to get a game there whenever i want. Nevertheless I'm up for the challenge!

During this quest i will also focus on reviewing more of my games, which i have not really done all to much during the past months. Also i will work through Akira Ishidas 'Attack and Defense' and make an sgf-file where i study the Joseki i mostly encounter. Whenever i work through stuff in Sabaki im planning to write down my thoughts so i can share it with you. Please feel free to comment or criticize!

I will start off with the review of a game i lost on OGS this morning.

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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:03 am 
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I noticed that I'm quite bad at reviewing, since i always get lost in playing through branches of variations until at some point i find it even hard to remember what i played in the actual i game. Because of this I decided to focus only on one specific situation, which made me fell like the game turned against my favor from this point on. With this strategy i hope to be able to actually finish a review without having to compromise depth and detail.

In this game this was after i approached a 3-4 stone low, got kicked and then pincered. First off all i think the outside approach around G-16 (like you would do to a chinese opening) might have been a better idea, but since there was a little more space between the corner stone and the extension i decided to be brave and try to go in. What do you think of this? Is it fine in this case or better handle it like a high-chinese?

The rest of my thoughts will be inside the sgf-file. I hope the file is somewhat clear and i did not mess anything up. You will now you're on the right path, when i does not look to good for Black :lol:


http://eidogo.com/#xIKpI0C5




PS: I edited the sgf, so it's a little easier to follow. The main branch is now actually the main branch. Also i made the alphabetical choices uniform, so that by following possibility A you always stay on the main brach.


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00NolesVScmfcfss_Review_short.sgf [6.63 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:47 am 
Oza

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I think the way you played in the main branch is fine for the most part. I would recommend forcing once more at B13, as opening white's skirt in sente is big, and it makes white thin on the left side in general. From that point you can stake a claim to the top side as you did and can look forward to invading the left side to split white into two groups in the future, with the thickness black just built backing up any invasion plans.

If white were to jump in as in the game, I have no real complaints with the way it was played by black. White is getting jealous and playing too close to thickness. It is easier to do without having black at B13, though. Setting up for the squeeze is fine, and makes it clear that white's invasion was premature. I would aim to try and solidify the upper right while white strives to establish a viable group in gote, and then take a big point like the open right side.


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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:23 pm 
Gosei
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Adding visual analysis to the above comment on B13, which is a good point to learn from.



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Post #5 Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:13 pm 
Judan

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In the initial position I used to always play E17, and it's still a good move, but bots have taught me f17 is another good choice to consider, sometimes it's a little better. It can get complicated though.


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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #6 Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:24 am 
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Thanks for your replies. I think what i can take away is the fact, that the biggest moves on the board might not always be the ones that actually look it and that sometimes they might even be on the second line. I will try to consider such ideas more, when thinking about what is Sente and when to play away.


Today i started to study a little bit of Joseki. As the low one-space-pincer answering my high approach to a 3-4 stone often seems to result in unfavorable positions for me, I decided to look at it a little closer. I tried to stick to moves I would actually play in my own games (starting of with the attachment as default answer), but checked with Josekipedia or Leela to help me judge the outcome of the different variations. As this is a little bit more time and work intensive then I thought I decided to cover just the variations that result from the opponent answering my attachment with a outside hane and will add the rest in the course of the following days.



What I learned from todays study is:

1. The 5-6 diagonal is a nice dual purpose move I should consider more often during my games.
2. If i ever happen to play the low pincer myself, I will hopefully remember, that defending the group connected to my initial corner stone is always more important. :geek:


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3-4-HighAppr-LowPincer.sgf [15.4 KiB]
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Post #7 Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:24 am 
Honinbo

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To study joseki, may I suggest checking out Waltheri (http://ps.waltheri.net ) and the Elf GoGoD commentaries(s3://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopengo/a ... _sgfs.gzip . I think that's right. I downloaded the commentaries long ago)?

Here are some comments I made after checking with both. :)


_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
----
Many are cold, but few are frozen.


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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #8 Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:56 am 
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Thanks for the comments and resource hints Bill. I've used Watheri before, but more likely when i had questions about Fuseki. Now that I think about it, I never really used the opportunity to analyse just a local situation.
Concerning the Elf GoGod Commentaries this (https://dl.fbaipublicfiles.com/elfopengo/analysis/data/gogod_commentary_sgfs.gzip) seems to be the link, thats currently working. I'm unzipping right now, but this might take a little while. Already looking forward to using this tomorrow, to tackle the rest of the variations!

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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #9 Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:35 am 
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Here comes the second part of my 3-4 low pincer Joseki study, covering the inside hane (White B at move 4).

What i learned from this today is mostly to not be afraid of this move anymore. If you know the sequence it should mostly result in a pleasing result for the approaching one. Especially in the common board position I used for studying. On a more concrete note i learned:

1. Don't connect in response to the inside hane in response to the wedge. At least not on default.
2. Even if the infamous ladder coming from the second line turn is good, playing the corresponding sequence will not necessarily yield the best result for the approaching player.



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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #10 Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:47 am 
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I'm going to skip the Joseki studies today, because there was a game, I played some days ago, that kept haunting my mind. So I decided to do a little review practice again. I switched to KataGo this time (because i realized the LeelaZero engine on ZBaduk works with chinese rules) but tried to stick to moves and variations i can understand and expect to see in games at my level again.

The story of this game is that i lost it quite badly, because i definitely lost my cool, as I saw now way to effectively handle Blacks lines of high stones. I mean i know, that a bunch of fourth line two space extensions are invadable, but during the game I could not find a good way to do so. During review i stumbled across a cool move that, although looking obvious, wasn't really on my radar. As the formation making this possible happened to be present on the board not only one, but at least two (maybe three times) I thought this might be excellent material to study invasion/reductions of fourth line formations.



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AllFourthLine.sgf [11.44 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #11 Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:02 am 
Oza

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I feel like white is already behind in this position, because black has claimed a decent amount of relatively solid territory already, while white has a corner and a second one that is very invadable. White's central groups aren't that strong, and with black poking out everywhere, don't have a lot of center prospects.

I'd want to think about playing P2 and try to get a couple forcing moves against the bottom black group while strengthening the corner and center groups. You could also, once white is stronger, think about attaching to the J16 stone, but I think it's premature with white's left group as it is. That said, I feel like the problem occurred earlier in the game. White didn't get appropriate compensation for black's strong areas.

Edit:
Specifically, I feel that white got a subpar result in the top left, and should have extended farther if the side was open, or maybe chosen the avalanche to change the direction of white's development there. In the bottom left, I also feel that white got a subpar result a bit later, as I read it, in handling the black group and allowing the invasion to scoop out part of its base without compensation.

Finally, if black is approaching star point stones with the large knight's move, you should consider responding with a large knight's move as defense, because the corner is not as vulnerable as if black had approached with the small knight's move.

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Post #12 Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:30 pm 
Gosei
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With defensive moves like A or B, White may fall behind further.

White has one clear opportunity.

Hint 1:
What's Black's largest potential territory?


Hint 2:
A two space extension on the 3rd line can't be cut but ...


Hint 3:
Two two space extensions on the 4th line can ...


Hint 4:
To make something out of nothing (sabaki) attach and crosscut

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Post #13 Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:41 pm 
Judan

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One reason why s8 block is even worse considering the whole board position than just locally is that your lower right is ALSO open at p2. So it doesn't actually make much territory as black can just come in at q2. And if you block p2 he can come in the other side (but not as well). So you can't get both blocks to complete your territory. The thing to then think about is which block has better follow ups in weakening and annoying the black groups next to it. Then if you block one side, he comes in the other, you can try to get some benefit back from attacking the black group (if its possible).

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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #14 Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:54 am 
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Thank you all for your assessment and advice!


@skydyr
I revisited the opening / early midgame and think you are quite right, that White fell behind quite early in the game. I made a few comments of what I think might have been the reason for White falling behind:




@Knotwilg
I was thinking about the something like attaching to the tops two space extensions too, but sadly missed the timing to do so. After I managed to get some center influence and started to feel like an invasion there could actually work, Black just defended.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . X . . X , . X . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . 2 O O X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 1 X . X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . X . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , O O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . O O . . X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X X . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



@Uberdude
This seems like a good rule of thumb, when having to decide such things. I will try to adhere to it, when I'm faced with such a decision again.


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AFL_Fuseki.sgf [14.99 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Noles Study Journal
Post #15 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:21 am 
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I finished off my first analysis of the 3-4 high approach low pincer variations today, with the modern sequences following the two space jump. I have to confess that many of those where way beyond what I would actually be able to play in my games right now (in particular the shoulder hit and the attachment), so it seems my take away for today is: If opponent play the two space just bump and make shape.




I stumbled upon something that made me wonder though. Following the bump there are two variations which are quite similar. According to Watheri both get played in pro games quite commonly, but to my limited point of view it seems like one is quite inferior to the other one.

First there is this variation:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But instead of kicking, Black might also play a shoulder hit on Whites two space jump, which possibly leads to the following result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O 4 . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Here it seems like 3 and 4 is a really bad exchange for Black, as it lets jump one line further with 8. Or is this compensated by the extra stone dividing Whites groups? They look quite hard to ever connect even in the first diagram, though :scratch:

PS: Or is it, that the endgame Aji form Blacks clamp is worse since 3 is in place?


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