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 Post subject: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #1 Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:17 am 
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Hello everyone,

I like that Go got now some presence on Twitch and Youtube, but there are possibilities, to gain more attention.
In chess there are now some streamers, with a really growing number at followers (even among many people which where not interested in chess before), cause they are including the followship really good.

They don´t limit their streams to training and comments. They also play average players and even beginners online and they do sometimes online tournaments and competitions with other streamers, to keep the interest of new followers. Here two examples from Germany and an international example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oc1rl_5Ne8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJzqWpHlNYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6i69R8QrjA

The chess streamers are really successfull to raise the popularity, with such streams. I think Go could do the same, even better. next to the possibility that high Dan or Professional Go players, play online against average and beginner players, there is the Rengo possibility.
The people who got curios cause of the streams, would be really interested, if they can play the streamer or maybe even team up in a Rengo. Also online tournaments and team competitions (for example fans of Antti Tormännen vs fans of Ali Jabarin) would help making Go more popular.

I think we can see in chess, give the newcomers a good and big program, their attention on the game is raised. Go can do the same, give the people fun with internetprojects and raise it´s popularity.
Especially now, when people are more at home during Corona. Chess took it´s advantage from it, there is no reason why Go should´nt take it´s advantage from it too.

What would you think? I mean we can see good oppurtunity and as streamers, strong player got a chance to gain some money too.


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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:09 am 
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I'm all for it. Someone just needs to test the waters.

I tried organising a blitz tournament which cash prizes, which I would broadcast on Twitch but - in a nutshell - stronger players were not interested enough (number-wise) to play.

Streaming myself would certainly be a fun experiment but since I think of myself as too weak to be educational and - agrueably more important - I don't have the time to stream consistently throughout the week, I didn't follow through. Fiddling with Twitch, Streamlabs OBS incl chatbot was fun nonetheless and I even could help out another go streamer with some settings ^^

So, I guess someone who is interested and also has the time to stream on a somewhat consistent schedule should go for it. Chessbrah started small, too ; )

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:22 am 
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Over the decades dozens of plans have been launched to improve the market penetration of go. The largest global success was the huge popularity of Hikaru No Go that started twenty years ago.

Based on my forty years of experience with our local club, promoting go is complicated and largely hopeless. Keeping beginners interested in go is more complicated because go is so weird. Beginners become discouraged so early. Our local success rate is less than 10%. Watching poorly produced go video programming online is just be one tool in what needs to be a carefully designed and coordinated promotional and educational effort.

And there is so much more to creating compelling video content than the possible delusion some of us have that we have something valuable to contribute to the promotion of go and the education of go players.

The big issue with the democratization of video is the low quality of production: bad lighting, illegible graphics, bad scripts, lousy stories, terrible personalities, bad acting, poor delivery, awful editing.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #4 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:17 am 
Oza

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Quote:
The big issue with the democratization of video is the low quality of production: bad lighting, illegible graphics, bad scripts, lousy stories, terrible personalities, bad acting, poor delivery, awful editing.


Well said! A modest list, and obviously not just limited to go. I wish to add: sound levels set ridiculously low. With just half a working ear, I am thus excluded from the majority of videos. This is ageism. Are you listening uberdude? *

I also have a question. Why do so many people think dark red text on a black background is readable? Are there humans out there with cats' eyes? Or are they cats pretending to be humans? If no in either case, can the "designers" (for want of a better word) please read Pangur Bán and learn about the different roles of humans and cats.

I also have a plaudit. The AGA/Redmond videos show this medium can work.

*I'm only picking on you because your videos are something I'd like to listen to.


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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #5 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:56 am 
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In France we have Christopher aka Fulguro go aka HisokaH. He's doing a great job with reviewed games every Wednesday, live comments, online tournaments, professional game analysis and more. His Youtube channel features more than 300 videos. And he's got also a Twitch channel (for live reviews) and a Discord server.

To support his work, we invite him at our tournaments as a reviewer. In the separate room where people are reviewing their games, players can ask him for a review. And players who achieve specific performances (highest number of wins in a McMahon tournament, for example) are awarded one to one lessons with him.

His Youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/user/FulguroGo/featured
His Twitch channel (live comments every wednesday 8 pm CET) : https://www.twitch.tv/hisokah


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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #6 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:43 pm 
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Hi everyone,

thanks for the comments so far, even if I wouldn´t fully agree with all.

@Pio2001

You made a good example, two more good examples are Go Pro Yeonwoo and dwyrin, who gives much content. You can even see already 23800 followers in dwyrins channel.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dwyrin

And if we take an association, instead of single influencer, the AGA does also a good job, with already 14300 followers (even so I think there is still a lot of growing potential).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ssociation

But there is more potential and more possibilities to grow. For example it´s really helpful, if sometimes streamers work together or do a competition with each other. On chess channels the growing results, are exponentially. Ok that also thanks to corona, the people are more at home and looking more content online, but chess really used this circumstances, Go could do the same.
Really enormous where the growing rate of The Big Greek and Niclas Huschenbeth, two german chess influencer. In march this year The Big Greek had around 14000 and Niclas Huschenbeth 16000, when I looked at their channels, now just 4 months later, they both have nearly 60000. They grew several times in just a few months.
One of the reasons of their success, is that they do daily content. Another is, that they worked together and with other chess influencers and that they did competitions. They created attention on this way. It´s common on Youtube, that influencer react, interact and rival with other channels, what gives them more follower. It always happen, that a part of the follower of one channel, start to follow the other channel, which is connected with a reaction, interaction or a competition. The simple reason is, more people learn, that there exist this other channel.
Also does it help, to generate clicks. More clicks and more videos/streams does feed the algorithm. if you feed the algorithm well on Youtube and Twitch, your channel will be shown to more people, so it can catch more attention.

It would be good, if some channels would do some crossovers in Go too. For esample an match between Fulguro go and dwyrin, or a team battle between the fans of these two, with an announcement on their channels.
Also would it be good for the visibility of Go, if we got some more streamer, which do a lot of content. So they can work with other streamers together. In Germany alone, I know more chess channels, than international in Go. So they have more options, to make some specials, with another channel. So this is one key point, to raise the success.

@bogiesan

I also know how hard it is to recrute new members. In this case especially from my chess times, I was 15 years in a chess club and this club did a lot, to get more members, especially in the youth section. The first years where good, but after some time it crashed. You can they, on the long term, my chess club know has success rate even below 1%. It´s hard to get the attention of potential members. And from the ones you get into your club, nearly all are just interested, for an short amount of time. Many Chess clubs suffer from this circumstances, chess became less attractive every year. But still it could be managed, to used an oppurtunity and raise the popularity online, thanks to the corona shutdown and some people who decided to do a lot of content.
So you can see, problems to keep beginners is no exclusiv problem for Go. Chess also is complex, the basic rules are even mor complex than in Go, even so Go does have more possibilites. The main issue is, both games are a sport and if you wanna be good in a sport, you have to do something for it. Many people doesn´t like this fact, but this is the curse, of the most sports. Not many can keep a lot of the beginners.
But still it´s important, to get the few members, you really can reach, even more don´t have that many people, cause the need is bigger, than in a big mainstream sport.

Also should be said, even if there are lousy streamers, you still can have enough with good content. Go Pro Yeonwoo makes good content, dwyrin too and Fulguro Go etc. and you can see it also in chess. You don´t need every time good stories or scripts. If you play simply online and stream, make some quotes and comments intuitiv, it can be quite good, enough channels proved it. Yeah you should look, if someone got the right personality for it, but there are enough who are suited for this.
Don´t focus too much on people who fail. There are always differences in the quality, if many different people try something, but still there are the good ones.

@SoDesuNe

Yes, its the main problem, to get someone, who is willing to do much content. But solution for a channel can be, if more than one person do streams and videos. The EGF does there streamin comments with many different persons, here is more the problem, that there are not that much streams and videos in comparison to other channels.
If you do daily, or at least 4 or 5 times a week a stream/video, you get more attention from people, who are not familiar with your game. The algorithm shows you to more people. If you just play some games online, it can already be a good informercial. Not every time a lecture or the comment of a strong game is needed.

So I hope, more channels try that way. Not only the EGF channel, other channels could do also some teamwork, to increase their content.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:41 am 
Oza

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I think part of the problem with targeting rank beginners and people who haven't played go previously is that the audience is pretty limited in terms of progress. For people who stick with go, graduating into a DDK happens relatively quickly, and then they're no longer in the target audience for a channel dedicated to bringing new people into go. If you keep orienting towards them, the channel is not appropriate for absolute beginners.

If you do orient to people just starting to play, anyone who starts following the channel will either not stick with go and stop watching, or they will stick with go and stop watching because the content doesn't match what they need. This makes it hard to keep visibility for the channel.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:12 am 
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skydyr wrote:
I think part of the problem with targeting rank beginners and people who haven't played go previously is that the audience is pretty limited in terms of progress. For people who stick with go, graduating into a DDK happens relatively quickly, and then they're no longer in the target audience for a channel dedicated to bringing new people into go. If you keep orienting towards them, the channel is not appropriate for absolute beginners.

If you do orient to people just starting to play, anyone who starts following the channel will either not stick with go and stop watching, or they will stick with go and stop watching because the content doesn't match what they need. This makes it hard to keep visibility for the channel.


Sorry, but I disagree. In the past, I would probably have thought the same way as you, but I saw something that simply refutes this argument. I see at the chess channels, where thousands of total beginners started to follow. And a lot of them stayed, netherless if they did fast progress or not.
These channels give a lot of content, where many different levels of chessplaying are focused. Explanations for beginners and to analysis for experts. It simply didn´t damage their concepts. At more complicated stuff, the streamer try to explain, even so enough players wouldn´t understand much of it, but still for the beginners, it´s often fascinating, what complicated and beautiful stuff is possible. For experienced players, even some the experts, basic things are often watched, they give input in the comments, what can be done if some doesn´t understand all or what basic problems could be shown in the future.

Also the chess competitions, when it comes to online tournaments or the possibility to play the streamer online, the beginners like it and the more experienced too. Even the players who still are at the beginning, try to get a game with streamers, who are way stronger and totally crush them, even with the time handicap, they often give. It´s on side a pleasure for them, just to play the person, they follow and on the other side, the streamer giving their opponents nice short reviews, what they could have done better.

And don´t forget, many want to see it, when to streamers doing something together, if it´s blind chess where on is telling the other which moves where done and maybe a competition between both etc.

Don´t make the mistake, of thinking thats just training for these people. Teaching is one aspect, but the next important aspect is, it´s also entertainment, even for some followers, who didn´t learn much.

It´s important, that you are visible, that people know your game exist and that it can bring fun, if they go deeper into it. You would never get everyone, clicking on your videos, but the look your videos/streams, the is bigger is that there someone among them who stays.
In western countries it´s even more important for Go, than in chess. In the west, nearly all know that chess exist, here is more the task to show, that it can be beautiful and bring some fun. Go is outside from Asia not known to the most people and even in Asia, there enough countries, where it´s not really known among the people. So the first task for Go in Europe, America etc is that people learn, this game exist.
Which game can hope, to grow if nobody knows even it´s existence. But if people see, this game exist, there is sometimes an interested person and some of them talk to others, like "have you heard of that game Go" or do you know this channel, where this exotic game is shown".
If you want interested people, your first step is, that they have to know our game exist. Look at the informercial industry, here also is it important, that they work making a product known to the people. It goes even so far, that even annoying informercials/commercials can be successful, cause they did the most important step, raise the number of people, who are knowing the product.

Ok, I hope we don´t have to that far, like the informercial industrie often does with products. I prefer it, if our beloved product, the beautiful game of Go, is presented in a positive way. But you can see, the first step to the way of success is, that more people know the existence, of what you wan´t to get some progress.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #9 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:59 pm 
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Oberlappen wrote:
Hello everyone,
The chess streamers are really successfull to raise the popularity, with such streams. I think Go could do the same, even better. next to the possibility that high Dan or Professional Go players, play online against average and beginner players, there is the Rengo possibility.
The people who got curios cause of the streams, would be really interested, if they can play the streamer or maybe even team up in a Rengo. Also online tournaments and team competitions (for example fans of Antti Tormännen vs fans of Ali Jabarin) would help making Go more popular.


Speaking from the perspective of someone who is already into go, it would be entertaining if more professional go players took to live-streaming or making videos. Part of the trouble - for Anglophones at least - is that so few go professionals speak English. There are only a couple of handfuls of professionals in the AGA and EGF. Western professional go is still practically in its infancy: the EGF has only had a professional system since 2014. Of the few western pros there are, it is unlikely that all of them would be interested in making such content, and indeed, that all of them would be any good at it.

Clearly there is a much larger pool of western chess professionals than go professionals, but that's not the only advantage chess has. Most of the highest level chess professionals are western and do make content on the internet. Hikaru Nakamura is probably the best example, but there are countless chess masters who make videos and stream. Chess content is also actively supported by the likes of chess.com, who claim to pay more than 50 chess players to make content.

This only addresses why there are so few professional go players who stream though. I would bet decent money that even if every single western go professional had a good, regular livestream, it would do almost nothing for the popularity of go in isolation.

Chess players have been making online content for years, but only in the past months has there been a surge of popularity online in chess. I believe the reason to be very simple: there is no value to someone who is not already into chess to watching a chess streamer. It naturally follows then, that non-chess players simply don't watch chess streams. If you're someone who is not into chess, and you find yourself watching a 2800 Elo streamer playing games against people of his own rank, it's very unlikely you'll get anything out of that stream. Even if a strong player is, say, sandbagging against 1000 Elo players à la dwyrin's Basics series, it is informative to most chess players, sure, but there's nothing for our hypothetical non-chess player.

I think the primary reason for the increase in chess's popularity recently is due to very popular streamers, who usually stream content related to video games, becoming interested in chess and collaborating with chess content creaters, culminating in the Pogchamps tournament. The key here is that chess streamers were collaborating with people with a very different audience. People like xQc's audience, who probably would never otherwise seek out or watch chess content, were not introduced to it per se (obviously they would have heard of chess) but were perhaps introduced to "proper" chess.

If hypothetically both Ali Jabarin and Antti Tormanen had live-streams, if they were to collaborate, it would introduce fans of Ali Jabarin to Antti Tormanen and vice versa. Though this would be good for the popularity of their live-streams, it would not be very good for the popularity of go, since it's safe to assume that fans of either would already play go, and therefore you would not newly introduce anyone to go.

bogiesan wrote:
Over the decades dozens of plans have been launched to improve the market penetration of go. The largest global success was the huge popularity of Hikaru No Go that started twenty years ago.


This is the best go-related example of a fusion of two things with a normally very different audience, as it introduced many anime/manga fans to go (and maybe vice versa?).

It is also interesting to note that since chess's online popularity has only surged in the past few months, we have no idea how many of these new chess players will actually remain chess players. It has been mentioned that promotion of go on a local level has a fairly low retention rate, so perhaps this is just a flash in the pan, as far as chess's popularity is concerned. But I digress.

To sum up, if the go community is to "take advantage" of the coronavirus pandemic, go would have to be exposed to a demographic which are largely not go players, whether through some piece of media that becomes popular, or collaborations with very popular streamers (maybe Pogchamps 2: Electric Boogaloo), or something else entirely. The sad conclusion, that I'm sure has been reached a thousand times, is that a surge of popularity in go is pretty much reliant on extraneous factors.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea to raise the popularity of Go
Post #10 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:24 pm 
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@danjosely

Hi thanks for the answer, also I would only agree with a part of it (even so it´s a big part).

First, you not have to depend on Pros. Enough good players could do a stram. Pros are just the first ones to consider. Look to chess, there came a lot of growing streams, not done by Grandmasters, sometimes not even international Master or Fide Masters. It´s quite rare that you can live from chess, as player who is not a grandmaster with less then 2600 Elo (even among 2600 Elo Grandmasters enough favour another work). Sometimes a player manage to get a job as a trainer, then they could do it, even below the grandmaster strength, but it´s not often.

For chess players it´s quite new the option, to live from Twitch/Youtube. In that way there not as experienced, like someone would think, the new popularity was quite surprising and Go got also chances here.

When it comes to other streams, who took attention of chess, in that amount it also just established in the last months. The chess influencer did first had to do some progress, so there were a real chance to catch the attention of other streams. And it´s not only gaming streams, I saw also other kinds of influencer starting play chess in the last months. But before corona, it was totally rare, that there was a crossover.

And now one big point to consider. The more clicks you got, the more videos/streams you do and the more likes you (all three things help), you will be shown to more people, who doesn´t look your game yet. So it´s not just at a crossover follower will be traded, with more views and content you will be shown to more people, who can consider if they wanna watch you. That it´s a basic principle on Youtube and Twitch for success, make use of the algorithm.

I hope some Go players consider to try more in that way. I´ve even thought about it too. But I think on the long term, you should play at least 3d or 2d, cause with more videos ongoing, you should have some strength, so you can properly understand things first, before you explain.
I would like to see some progress here, cause the first thing we need in Go, is to be known to more people outside from Asia.

Edit: Hikaru no Go was helping, but had some limitations, cause even among the fanbase of Manga and Anime not everyone knew it. The Manga got translations, but I´ve never heard of a tv presence in Europe and America. Maybe I am wrong, but I didn´t find the anime with an english synchro. So it seems in the west, the media which reaches more people could´t be used.

Also there a second little wave, which helped Go. After the AlphaGo match, I saw a few new members, cause they heard about it and wanted to try that game themselves. And this did even work, while this match and the evolving of the AI still was just mentioned by a small part of teh society. So things, that make people now your game exist, do help.

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