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Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game ?

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:50 am
by Gérard TAILLE
In the "How evaluate double sente moves ?" I try to explain (see viewtopic.php?p=260680#p260680) that AI (sorry to have use the french acronym IA) was probably able to use its knowledged of endgame principles through all phases in the game.
Let me try to explain this with an exemple. For strong players it will look quite obvious but I suspect it could be interesting for weaker amateurs (like me). BTW don't try to correct bad moves but only to take the idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . 5 . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
Years ago I was explained that after the sequence :b1: :w2: :b3: :w4: in this part of the game (I did not show the moves made in the bottom part of the board because it is not the point) the move :b5: becomes locally a very big point and the best one and, to prove this, my teacher showed me the two following diagrams:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
black :b5: is to passive because after white :w6: black has gained nothing
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . 8 . . 6 . 5 . . 7 . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
black :b5: is here to greedy because after white :w6: :b7: :w8: again black has gained nothing.

Fine isn'it?

Now let's try to analyse these moves with endgame theory tools.

When the board is empty, the temperature is t=14 => when black plays first the resulting score of the game will be t/2 = 7 (komi?).
When black plays :b1: she gains 14 points by this move but it is now white to play and, assuming the temperature remains t=14 then the expected result of the game will be 14 - t/2 = 7. Everything is OK; all moves are correct.
Considering white is a good move worth 14 points we reach again a position at temperature near from 14 and it is the same for black 3 with an expected result of 7.

Now what about the situation after white :w4: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . a . . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
The situation above is quite different because now the point "a" appears bigger than usual. Let's assume that the temperature is now t = 17 (just an example for an easier discussion OC)
By taking this point black gains 17 points but the big point has disappeared and the temperature drops to return to t=14. The expected result for black is now 17 - t/2 = 10 points and eventually black wins the game by 10 poinnt instead of 7.

You have to conclude that the white move :w4: should be a mistake isn'it?.

Let's go further. Let's suppose white :w4: but consider white has enough compensation because another big point "b" (say 17 points) has been built somewhere in the bottom of the game.

What is the expected result of the game: black plays "a", white plays the miai point "b", the temperature drop to t=14 and the expected result for the game is 17 - 17 + t/2 = 7.

Here it becomes very interesting

Look at at following endgame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc black to play
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . c a X . . X |
$$ | X X X O O . O O |
$$ | O X . X O . O X |
$$ | O X X X X O O X |
$$ | b X X . X X X X |
$$ | O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . O O O O O O |
$$ -------------------[/go]
The points "a" and "b" are worth 2 points gote and look miai but ... black may begin by playing the move "c" (which is locally a loss) which is sente but change the miai situation in a tedomri one with only the point "b" as remaining point => eventualyy black gains one point.

What about such strategy in our fuseki?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
Assume black is able to force the exchange :b5: :w6:
Locally it is a loss but here the point: the initial position was a miai situation (a big 17 points gote point "a" in the upper part of the board against a big 17 points gote point "a" in the bottom part of the board) but after sequence :b5: :w6: black keeps sente and the situation has become a tedomari one with only a big point "b" in the bottom part of the board.

As a consequence after the exchange :b5: :w6: followed by black "b" the expected score for the game becomes 0 + 17 - t/2 = 10 and blacks gains the game by 10 points instead of 7.

The conclusion is obvious but can lead to very strange moves:
1) in a tedomari situation you play simply the best gote point (OC after some urgent kikashi moves)
2) in a miai situation try to be creative: look for a sente sequence aiming at lowering the temperature of one big point (may be at the cost of a small local loss) and change the situation to a tedomari one.

That what tell us endgame principles!

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:17 am
by Bill Spight
Just a note on this position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 3d line attachment
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 7 5 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . . 6 , . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
I think that more than one of today's top bots will prefer the 3d line side attachment to the simple extension.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:33 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:Just a note on this position.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 3d line attachment
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 7 5 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 9 . . . . 6 , . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
I think that more than one of today's top bots will prefer the 3d line side attachment to the simple extension.
Surely you are right Bill.
Because it is a gote sequence it seems good for a tedomari situation. In my example this sequence may happen after a sente sequence in the the bottom of the board, intending to lower the temperature in this other big area.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:12 am
by RobertJasiek
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
black :b5: is to passive because after white :w6: black has gained nothing
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . 8 . . 6 . 5 . . 7 . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
black :b5: is here to greedy because after white :w6: :b7: :w8: again black has gained nothing.
I don't want to discourage your investigation but you also must consider the possibility that either position is not quiet yet. Maybe Black continuing a bit can actually get a sequence with which he gains?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
Assume black is able to force the exchange :b5: :w6:
Locally it is a loss but here the point: the initial position was a miai situation (a big 17 points gote point "a" in the upper part of the board against a big 17 points gote point "a" in the bottom part of the board) but after sequence :b5: :w6: black keeps sente and the situation has become a tedomari one with only a big point "b" in the bottom part of the board.
If there is that bottom tedomari, you must also study either player's earlier tenuki there.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:19 am
by Gérard TAILLE
[quote="RobertJasiek"]

I don't want to discourage your investigation but you also must consider the possibility that either position is not quiet yet. Maybe Black continuing a bit can actually get a sequence with which he gains?

[quote]

Of course she will gain by continuing but by 7 points instead of 10. That is the point.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:36 am
by RobertJasiek
That is what you hope but is it correct?

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:52 am
by Gérard TAILLE
RobertJasiek wrote:That is what you hope but is it correct?
It is the point Robert and it is up to you, as go player, to decide.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . 2 . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]
If you consider the temperature after :w4: is higher than after :w6: it is true otherwise it is false.
My feeling is that is true but really it doesn't matter for this specific position. My message was only to shwo how endgame principles can be used in other phases of the game.
If my example is not convincing I am sure you can build another one can't you?

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:01 am
by Polama
Here's an example of this sort of thing from a Michael Redmond Alphago commentary I managed to hunt down. He can do it more justice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NT0PJ3dTcA)
but here's my amateur retelling. White to play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Michael commented that two areas look clearly bigger than the rest (a and b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . d . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We can see that they both extend from a white group, and undercut black's position. But neither is clearly sente: whichever white takes, black can extend away from the other group at c or d. Michael's opinion was that a is a bit bigger than b, so white can take that move and be happy, black will end up taking c and the game continues.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Instead, white plays at 1, which is smaller than either of them. And kind of reminds me of your example: b is now not just an extension from a 4-4 stone, but an extension from a shimari (and black can't approach at 1 to sort of over-concentrate white). So if a was bigger than b, white has now made b bigger. It was white's initiative to choose which side he wanted, he lets black choose. But he still gets one of them, and he got the smaller, but still big move at 1.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:35 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Polama wrote:Here's an example of this sort of thing from a Michael Redmond Alphago commentary I managed to hunt down. He can do it more justice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NT0PJ3dTcA)
but here's my amateur retelling. White to play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Michael commented that two areas look clearly bigger than the rest (a and b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . d . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We can see that they both extend from a white group, and undercut black's position. But neither is clearly sente: whichever white takes, black can extend away from the other group at c or d. Michael's opinion was that a is a bit bigger than b, so white can take that move and be happy, black will end up taking c and the game continues.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Instead, white plays at 1, which is smaller than either of them. And kind of reminds me of your example: b is now not just an extension from a 4-4 stone, but an extension from a shimari (and black can't approach at 1 to sort of over-concentrate white). So if a was bigger than b, white has now made b bigger. It was white's initiative to choose which side he wanted, he lets black choose. But he still gets one of them, and he got the smaller, but still big move at 1.
It's a very good example Paloma.
Michael Redmond commentaries are as usual very interesting but you have to remember he is 9 dans and as a consequence when he looks at a move like white "a" or white "b" he is able to visualize very quickly a local answer sequence for black as well as a local follow-up by white in case of a black choose tenuki. The point is that it is really impossible for him to explain all what he is able to take into account before chosing a move. The choice made by Michael Redmond to draw our attention to the value of an area which can change by each move near this area is judicious for amateurs like us who may easily miss such very important point.
In other words Michael Redmond commentary are correct OC but I am quite sure other important point has to be taken also into account.

Let me try an other view:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . g . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For white point of view I can easily see the four possilities a, b, c and d

White "a" looks like a very good move being a good extension from the from two white stone in the upper left corner and aiming at some weakness in the upper right black corner. Locally a white move at "a" greatly increase the value of point f and we can almost say that white "a" black "f" is a sente sequence for white.

White "b" is also a good move but the extension from the white stone on 4-4 point in the bottom left corner is not ideal because this 4-4 white stone being alone may be easily be a target for black. As you mentionned Paloma, if you add a white stone at "c" the white move at "b" becomes now a very good move.

What about a shimari by white in the bottom left corner. You have the choice between white "b" or white "e". What is best? No hesitation if you play white "e" you put the influence on the bottom side of the board where the black stones in the bottom right corner are very strong. White "e" is just a losing move isn't it? On contrary white "c" put the influence on the left side where you can clearly see a good field for a future fight. My conclusion is that white"c" can be consider almost sente move implying a black answer at "e".

The fourth move white "d" will increase the value of black "g" and my feeling is that black "g" works better than white "g" (just a feeling of course).

How to choose between the two almost sente moves white "a" and white "c".
If black answers white move as expected the order of move doesn't matter OC. Here is the point when white choose to play "a" or "c" black, instead of answering passively may choose an answer like a reverse sente in the other area.

Let's look at this idea:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Against white :w1: you imagine black :b2: white :w3:
The result seems good for white because the extension :w3: from the white shimari in the bottom left corner is more efficient than the extension :b2: from the black shimari in the upper right because the influence of this shimari is rather towards the right side than the upper side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . h 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
On the other after :w1: :b2: black kakari threat greatly increase the value of white answer at :w3: or "h" here and black will then be able to answer :w1: by :b4:. The result looks a success for black because now the influence of the two white stone in the bottom left corner is towards the wrong direction.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 .. . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
To be a little provocative white :w1: looks like a double sente move which have to be played immediately!
Here the white shimari in bottom left corner is oriented towards a potentiel fight area while the black shimari in the upper right corner is in the wrong direction to fight in the upper area.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:08 am
by gennan
Are black F3 and C6 really sente? With white I would be tempted to follow up from M17.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Just to be sure, I quickly checked with KataGo and all of these options are very close in its evaluation (differing by only about 1% or 0.1 point), though I did not let it run to very high numbers of playouts.

So all of the suggested moves should be fine opening moves for humans (and so is wR13/bR12), but none of them is clearly sente. It's mostly a matter of taste/style if white responds or ignores a black approach in the lower left corner.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:24 am
by Bill Spight
gennan wrote:So all of the suggested moves should be fine opening moves for humans (and so is wR13/bR12), but none of them is clearly sente.
IMO there are few sente in the opening. That's one reason why the bots tenuki so often. :)

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:28 am
by Gérard TAILLE
gennan wrote:Are black F3 and C6 really sente? With white I would be tempted to follow up from M17.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Just to be sure, I quickly checked with KataGo and all of these options are very close in its evaluation (differing by only about 1% or 0.1 point), though I did not let it run to very high numbers of playouts.

So all of the suggested moves should be fine opening moves for humans (and so is wR13/bR12), but none of them is clearly sente. It's mostly a matter of taste/style if white responds or ignores a black approach in the lower left corner.
I agree with you gennan. Surely It's mostly a matter of taste/style. My intention was to show basic endgame principles may be used and help any player to imporve their feeling of the game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Seeing a 9 dan player saying a move at "a" is really a good move may be better than a move at "b" I always try to find some justification hoping in the process to improve my game. Maybe in this specific situation I am completly wrong (I am not a strong player) and a discussion between us can be useful.
How do you understand that a white move at "a" may be better (just slightly better) than a move at "b" as suggested by Michael Redmond?

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:40 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
gennan wrote:So all of the suggested moves should be fine opening moves for humans (and so is wR13/bR12), but none of them is clearly sente.
IMO there are few sente in the opening. That's one reason why the bots tenuki so often. :)
Sure Bill.
The definition of a sente move (or a double sente) shall not be a move we have to answer immediatly. You can say that it is a move which increase the temperature of the local area or whatever you want but don't take sente word in its stricly sense simply beause it is not the common understanding of go players who know perfectly that, before answering the so called "sente" move, it might be better to play first tenuki or even some yose miru move in order to find the best answer to the so called sente move.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:42 am
by gennan
I didn't mean that white will play some forcing sequence to respond to black's approach later. I meant that white can truely ignore black's 1st approach, accepting that black will play a double approach.

For example, this is a perfectly playable continuation for both:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . X . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So I agree with Bill. AI taught us that opening moves tend to be less sente than we thought. Reponding or not is an even choice in many cases.

Re: Applying endgame principles in other phases of the game

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:02 am
by RobertJasiek
Gérard TAILLE wrote:The definition of a sente move (or a double sente) shall not be a move we have to answer immediatly. You can say that it is a move which increase the temperature of the local area or whatever you want but don't take sente word in its stricly sense simply beause it is not the common understanding of go players who know perfectly that, before answering the so called "sente" move, it might be better to play first tenuki or even some yose miru move in order to find the best answer to the so called sente move.
1) There need not only be one definition of a sente move, but there can be, e.g., different definitions for "considered only locally" versus "considered globally".

2) For what purpose do you suggest "shall not be a move we have to answer immediately"? When considering a global context, fine (e.g., because the first local move might be played as a ko threat for a ko elsewhere). However, your suggestion does not specify whether you consider locally or globally. For a local consideration, you would need to explain why "shall not" because "shall be a move we have to answer immediately" is the supposed nature of sente.

3) There is hardly "the common understanding (or: sense) of go players". Weak justifications like this do not bring us anywhere.

4) "before answering the so called "sente" move, it might be better to play first tenuki": Uhm, no. There are study purposes for which it makes sense to study only locally. E.g., first study each local endgame locally, characterise it by move value, gains and count, and only then use such local information for easier global decision-making. In the local study stage, there is no such thing as a tenuki or test move elsewhere.