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e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=18658

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e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:45 am
by thequietcenter
Hello, I played White in this game and lost. I would appreciate a review:

https://online-go.com/game/41135422

[admin]
I added the sgf.
JB
[/admin]


Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:40 am
by Knotwilg
https://online-go.com/review/845176

You played a good opening.

Losing moves and lessons to learn
32 - accept the common exchange
36 - distinguish big middle game from endgame
38 - improve L&D reading to avoid small gote
58 - learn/consider the double hane technique
66 - attack the whole, not a small part

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:41 am
by thequietcenter
Knotwilg wrote:https://online-go.com/review/845176

You played a good opening.

Losing moves and lessons to learn
32 - accept the common exchange
36 - distinguish big middle game from endgame
38 - improve L&D reading to avoid small gote
58 - learn/consider the double hane technique
66 - attack the whole, not a small part
Yes, thank you for the review. I made screenshots of the crucial moments - http://www.metalevel.link/baduk/positio ... enter-10k/

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:33 am
by Joaz Banbeck
16: Way too defensive. Even if black were to have played the standard C6 at move 15, it would still be defensive. But here it is almost paranoid.

You have a solid formation. Use it. Jump to D7. ( Remember the proverb: "The one space jump is almost never wrong." It should be on your short list most of the time )

Would you rather have this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Can you feel the power that :w2: has in the second diagram?


40: This IS paranoid. If you read the possible attacks, you will see that he can't hurt your corner.


44: Another useful proverb: "Hane at the head of two stones without looking."


As noted in a previous review, you play very solidly. What you need now is advice on how to use those solid positions.
I recommend getting a copy of "The Breakthrough to Shodan". It would fit you perfectly.
It is a classic, and is back in print again.
https://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Sho ... 4871870197

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:59 am
by jeromie
I'll chime in and say I disagree with Joaz; 16 is fine. I think the reason is that it virtually connects J4 with the rest of the stones, making it very unlikely that you'll end up with a weak group in the area that can be attacked later.

I'll also echo Knotwilg's comments about life and death practice. It looks to me like 36, 38, and 40 were all moves that you made because you weren't sure of the status of the corner group. That was three opportunities to do something much better on the board, and 40 in particular was about the same as passing and giving your opponent a free move. If you can eliminate those types of moves, it will make a big difference in your game. (On the other hand, you will also lose some games where you think a group is safe and read it out wrong. That's just part of the learning process.)

Similarly, at 50 I can see that it would be helpful to think of moves in terms of group status. Yes, getting the corner is fairly big. But that group is safe, so it doesn't need a stone right away. The group in the upper right, on the other hand, has no eye space and is vulnerable to attack. It needs a stone as soon as possible in order to do something useful and not just be a target for bullying.

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:40 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Joaz Banbeck wrote:16:...Jump to D7...

Would you rather have this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...
jeromie wrote:I'll chime in and say I disagree with Joaz; 16 is fine. I think the reason is that it virtually connects J4 with the rest of the stones, making it very unlikely that you'll end up with a weak group in the area that can be attacked later...
I certainly can't disagree with this. White will end up very secure.

But the tradeoff is that white gets capped. His group gets stymied.
This early in the game, forming safe groups along the side is not a high priority.
Getting influence matters more.

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:13 am
by Schachus
jeromie wrote: I'll also echo Knotwilg's comments about life and death practice. It looks to me like 36, 38, and 40 were all moves that you made because you weren't sure of the status of the corner group. That was three opportunities to do something much better on the board, and 40 in particular was about the same as passing and giving your opponent a free move. If you can eliminate those types of moves, it will make a big difference in your game. (On the other hand, you will also lose some games where you think a group is safe and read it out wrong. That's just part of the learning process.)
Let me play devils advocate: doesnt L&D practise actually teach you that both 36 and 38 are good moves? Before 36, white has a „J group“, that can be killed, but the „J group with hane“ is alive. Thus, 36 seems to be „alright“ to me and in case black answers as in the game, it was even pretty good(locally throwing in right of 36 would capture the hane unless white can capture the throw in and go out) By contrast, 40 is pretyy unneccessary, but even that is at least a small endgame move. But I agree, that this is an unusual case, and hane is usually not the way to make eyes

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:24 pm
by kvasir
There is an error in the review because black can usually kill the J-group like this, except I think it is a ko as is on the board.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . 1 . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 6 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . 8 X O . 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 3 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
J-group is pretty much (European) dan level stuff because it is obviously harder to play over the board than it is to figure it out as a tsumego. As is on the board there is actually a ko.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . 1 . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 8 |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 0 |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . X O 7 9 |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . X O . 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK, now that it is established that the J-group is complicated I want to share that I feel :w34: was a typical mistake that is important to avoid. Instead of descending white should play the hane. This expands white's eye shape and creates a cutting point. It is much better!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . O . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: e71621056 [9k] vs. thequietcenter [10k] - please review

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 3:49 pm
by jeromie
Yikes. Thanks for the correction on the corner group. Back to studying L&D…
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