Life In 19x19

I'm starting this thread since discussion about the upcoming pro qualification tournament (https://nagofed.org/docs/2022-pro-quali ... -rules.pdf) has been taking place on a thread that suggests a different subject.

The games will be played in person at the National Go Center (https://www.nationalgocenter.org/), but does anyone know if there will be any efforts to broadcast them live? If not, does anyone know if the game records and results be made available as the tournament progresses?

Based on the scarce updates on the NAGF webpage I'm skeptical we'll hear any results until the tournament is finished, but I'm hoping someone here may have some better information about this.

Thanks.

lodestone wrote:(...) does anyone know if there will be any efforts to broadcast them live? If not, does anyone know if the game records and results be made available as the tournament progresses?

From USGo:
Selected games of the pro qualification tournament will be live-broadcast on KGS without commentary. Area go players interested in being on the EJ’s recording team can sign up here.

Take care

There's a thread on r/baduk with some info. Basically, they'll do what they can, but the usual volunteers are swamped.

Take care

I still don't really get it.

Why are they having a professional qualifier when they (NAGF) don't have a professional circuit? What is the point, if they can't exist as professional players.

Of course, I'll try to tune in to the games, say thank you for organising and broadcasting them, enjoy watching them, etc ... but meh, what are they trying to do there.

Here are two websites providing unofficial results of the tournament so far:

https://baduk.club/2022pqt

https://abrasive-scissor-b0e.notion.sit ... ec4043630d

The second site includes some photos of the event.


Some games are being broadcast on KGS in the "Club > National Go Center" room.

Javaness2 wrote:Why are they having a professional qualifier when they (NAGF) don't have a professional circuit? What is the point, if they can't exist as professional players.

Of course, I'll try to tune in to the games, say thank you for organising and broadcasting them, enjoy watching them, etc ... but meh, what are they trying to do there.

Maybe they are trying to create ranks of professional players so that they can have a professional circuit?

Regardless, the NA pros do get invited to international tournaments. So do some amateurs that could be pros. So it makes sense to have the player formally organized as NA pros, even if it's only to the best extent that $30 a year donations can provide.

CDavis7M wrote: Maybe they are trying to create ranks of professional players so that they can have a professional circuit?

Regardless, the NA pros do get invited to international tournaments. So do some amateurs that could be pros. So it makes sense to have the player formally organized as NA pros, even if it's only to the best extent that $30 a year donations can provide.

Personally I think it's a status thing--look we have pros too. I don't see how the average Western amateur benefits from new pros, and I certainly don't think the AGA should subsidize them out of membership dues.

pwaldron wrote:Personally I think it's a status thing--look we have pros too. I don't see how the average Western amateur benefits from new pros, and I certainly don't think the AGA should subsidize them out of membership dues.

Personally I'm happy to have my membership fee spent on pro qualifications and subsidizing their tournament activity. I think pro competitions are fun and exciting. But I can see why some people don't care. Regardless, the point is to promote Go in general and having pros promotes Go because they create news and being labeled a pro can help them draw bigger crowds.

My club's hometown hero is doing well. I hope he makes it because everyone in the club will be stoked.

pwaldron wrote: Personally I think it's a status thing--look we have pros too. I don't see how the average Western amateur benefits from new pros,

I think I see your point, but I see it differently. I think someone in management saw the idea (now a decade old) and made it happen, assuming it would help the spread of go as it had in the early years of the laymen associations in Japan.

Where I think they failed is that they didn't consider how the preconditions where different. Japan already had both a professional system before, and a substrate of very good players meeting regularly. Books, equipment makers... The whole industry.

In the West, publishers and equipment makers struggle. Players, by and large, come to the game late (unless there's a family/cultural tradition), and are expected to get a degree and stop playing. And, by and large, western youth is not considered adult enough at insei ages. And yet, they seem to be expected to pull the professional system on their own.

In sports with similar cadres, how many professionals can make a living without government support programs? Who takes care of their professional systems, and how?

The system seems to have all the vices of a top down approach and all the requirements of a bottom up one. With all my respect for the volunteers at this event: there are prizes and a professional qualification on the table. Record keepers and commentators shouldn't be an after thought.

Take care

Well... you know that piece in one of Pratchett's Guards books where Colon&Nobbs are worried about irony and sarcasm coming their way...?

Dwyrin went there. He could have gone further, but he did go.

Take care.

What a burn! Although since the NAGF isn't just the AGA, it is also CGA right, you have to think he's put a match to a building to watch it burn, and then sat down on a hot blowtorch. Ahem, I think I got too caught up in that burn there.

Seriously though, isn't it down to the NAGF to promote this thing to inifinity and back? If they don't give the basics to the AGA and CGA to publish, well that's kind of their own fault. I certainly expected to see more info on the AGA website about this, and was disappointed not to find anything. However, I only look at the AGA because the NAGF website was hideously uninformative. CGA I didn't look at, because it seems to be totally out of date.

Dwryin's internet humor was old in 2012 (and it's older now. He sure has a lot to teach and say but I just can't listen.

Putting him aside, I completely expected to not get any results or game records and I was about to post that in a reply when I saw another reply that some games would be shared online. What other professional organization shares qualifying games in real time? I don't think records are usually shared either.

It's different in NA given the lack of other pro news. So I agree that the NAGF would do well to promote this better. But I think their original plan was simply to publish the results (clearly)

Complainers should become volunteers.

I checked Dwryin's channel long enough to see that he has just enough time to complain about NA go and pub stomp kyus but not enough time to commentate any of the qualifying matches.

If anyone is interested, here are the games of the 5. round:

https://online-go.com/review/899821
https://online-go.com/review/899835
https://online-go.com/demo/view/899831
https://online-go.com/review/899834

Number one:

Given 1) The population disparity in many part of the US, and 2) the small number of strong players in both the North America and Europe, and 3+) other factors I've yet to recall, the AGA, and perhaps to a small degree the EGF, but really the AGA might want to consider extending their vision in two ways 1) They really should extend their stone to include all of the Americas in their pro program. Is Fernando Aguilar still alive? Anyway 2) The absolute NUMBER 1 priority from nearly every strategic perspective would be to intercoordinate and link strongly with Europe and the EGF. I've mentioned many times before that random unstrategic attempts to 'get more players' is bad--perhaps even moreso when they work.

However, what I would say to the EGF is this: 1) ratings are fundamentally a tool for speed chess, go whatever. By definition slower games are not for ratings--and that is fine. By definition, the point of the slower game is that game itself. If we don't know who is stronger at slow games but only have a general idea from fast games, it makes it more uncertain who will win that slow game. On the other hand, for speed-go, chess, events, it's all about the statistics. In other words they're good for people who want fast-paced action and drama, but they are also good also for the John Fairbairn number crazy guys--to the statistician knowing who is better and by exactly how much makes having many speed games more exciting.

Instead of having a weekend speed tournament separate from the main tournament, have a fast tournament with many games and transfer the McMahon scores to the beginning of a slow tournament with maybe just six or seven games, like the London Open, or perhaps even less. By definition doing well in fast go is as much a sign of strength and so is perfectly valid to transfer it's Mchahon scores to the slow main tournament, but that way all the problems go away and with 20 or so games fit into two days at the beginning it's a start on shrinking the congress to one week and coordinating it with the American Congresses (which perhaps should be north and south instead of American and Latin American).I can extend. Given, this is an opportunity to pay more attention to quality rather than size.

CDavis7M wrote: Personally I'm happy to have my membership fee spent on pro qualifications and subsidizing their tournament activity. I think pro competitions are fun and exciting. But I can see why some people don't care. Regardless, the point is to promote Go in general and having pros promotes Go because they create news and being labeled a pro can help them draw bigger crowds.

One of the main problems is that the pros themselves don't care. I don't know how familiar you are with their situations, I certainly am not, but I heard that several of them don't even play go anymore. The only one who's still as active as his European counterparts is Ryan Li. That's 1 out of 6. To make matters worse, Kevin Yang, one of the current favourites for the pro title has said on one of the EGF streams something along the lines that he's not certain if he'll still play go in the future. If strong players only join pro qualifications for the fun of it and/or money (assuming there is a cash prize), then what's the point? This is such a stark contrast to the European pros who all still very much enjoy go. Some are more into competing, others teaching, promoting go or running their go businesses but all 8 of them are still very active in the go world.

I don't think such a lethargic pro system will do much for the promotion of go in the USA nor will such a poorly promoted and organised pro qualification tournament. Dwyrin was pretty much right on all accounts. What was the most disappointing for me is the lack of a proper Twitch/Youtube/KGS/OGS commentary. Devin is trying his best but an, admittedly enthusiastic, 1 dan and whatever co-host he's able to scrounge up at the last moment bumbling through a game that's too high-level for them to understand just doesn't cut it. That the NAGF allowed this to happen is even more mind-boggling if you glance at their board of directors which boasts such illustrious names as Hajin Lee, Michael Redmond and Ryan Li, all of whom are very strong players and excellent commentators. If they weren't able to awaken the other pro players from their sleep, couldn't they themselves have commented a few games? Or at the very least, asked some other strong players to do so? Apparently not. I suppose this qualification tournament and the two new pros will be gathering dust in a decade or so, as are the previous editions of the tournament and the then newly-minted pros. Such a waste of time, money and effort...