Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

How to improve on this

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=19006

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How to improve on this

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:22 pm
by Jika
Hi,
as far as I can generalize from playing on 13x13 and 19x19, I have learned a bit about openings in a way that 'looks' as if it has potential, but then I fail to turn this into territory. Yesterday I played the BadukAI app, set to 30 kyu, and it started with random looking moves in the middle of the board while I took corners and sides. I tried not to be cut off from the middle because the AI played there so much. At that time, the win rate was much in my favour, 0.1 for AI. Maybe due to policy. But while it looks as if I had created some nice framework in my games, everything comes crashing down after that: I can't turn the loose connections into eyes, so my groups end up dead.
I see two problems: Making true eyes (need to do tsumego).
But I fail at some point in making shape. Getting from a framework to shape with good eye potential (I'm spending many moves trying that), and if I have different shapes that look as if they have eye potential really connect them.
Any idea how to practice this, or what to practice?
Thanks!

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:50 pm
by Schachus
Since your experience is rather general, concrete answers are difficult.
But, if the game went as it sounds like, you did not fail at making eyes, but rather having to make eyes is already a failure. Instead, stay connected!
Learn about tactical reading of connections. Why is a two-point jump on the 3rd row without opposing stones nearby connected? What to do to reinforce the connection if the opponent plays nearby or threatens to cut? That sort of thing. Once you know stuff like that, you will not be cut in the first place

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:23 pm
by Knotwilg
Jika wrote:Hi,
as far as I can generalize from playing on 13x13 and 19x19, I have learned a bit about openings in a way that 'looks' as if it has potential, but then I fail to turn this into territory. Yesterday I played the BadukAI app, set to 30 kyu, and it started with random looking moves in the middle of the board while I took corners and sides. I tried not to be cut off from the middle because the AI played there so much. At that time, the win rate was much in my favour, 0.1 for AI. Maybe due to policy. But while it looks as if I had created some nice framework in my games, everything comes crashing down after that: I can't turn the loose connections into eyes, so my groups end up dead.
I see two problems: Making true eyes (need to do tsumego).
But I fail at some point in making shape. Getting from a framework to shape with good eye potential (I'm spending many moves trying that), and if I have different shapes that look as if they have eye potential really connect them.
Any idea how to practice this, or what to practice?
Thanks!
It's indeed difficult to react on your own impression from games or situations which we can't judge on their objective "truth", i.e. what do the stones tell us, rather than yourself? And so, where might you be misinterpreting the situation or give too much importance to certain aspects of the game.

Given the central concept in your post is "shape" in particular when it comes to "making eyes", we might assume that you have to work on the concept of eyeshape (via tsumego) indeed but also infer that you are overestimating the importance of "making eyes". Making eyes is really only necessary when you are surrounded. So, avoiding being surrounded, by moving into open space and eventually, as Schachus points out, connecting your groups, is a natural way of making not only eyes but territory.

Territory and eyes are the yin and yang of Go: fast development leads to more territory (surrounded empty space) which in itself offers stability for the surrounding group in terms of eyespace.

To "lead by example" let me show this diagram:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------
$$| . S S S . . . .
$$| . S S S . . . .
$$| . S S O . 6 . .
$$| . . 4 . . . . .
$$| . . 2 1 . . . .
$$| . . 3 5 . . . .
$$| C C C . . . . .
$$| C C C . . . . .
$$| C C C . . . . .
$$| . . . 7 . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . .[/go]
In this "established corner pattern" or "joseki", :w6: moves out into open space, avoiding being surrounded. In similar fashion, :b7: is making a "base" for his 3 stones which are in contact with White's corner stones. Both players are creating a potential eyespace for their group. White's surrounded space being in the corner, we can almost certainly call this territory. Black's base is at the side and can still be invaded (scooped out or separated) but Black's numeric advantage in the area should give him a good result.

These higher level concepts should over time take the place of the lower level concepts of "making eyes". But again, it doesn't hurt at all to learn the very basics of making eyes for a surrounded group. Which shapes lead to living with 2 eyes? Which lead to living with seki? And which shapes die?

See the chapter "life and death" at Sensei's Library.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:32 am
by Jika
Test
Edit: I got some error message trying to submit the game's sgf.
Preview of the player works. However it seems I can't submit the post.
Will post the sgf as soon as I get it working.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:58 am
by Knotwilg
Hi Jika

If you take the game record and open it in Notepad (or any text editor) then paste it here with the sgf tag around it, it should work.
If it doesn't then just paste the record without the tags and we'll take care of it.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:49 am
by Jika
(;FF[4]C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
CA[UTF-8]GM[1]SZ[19];B[dp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.124793, 1, -6.599\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ho];B[pq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.055462, 1, -9.498\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[cd];B[qo]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.090336, 1, -7.675\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[qh];B[pd]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.046645000000000006, 1, -9.987\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ih];B[nc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.037274, 1, -10.258\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[qp];B[pp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.023318, 1, -12.132\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[cg];B[cn]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.014732, 1, -13.67\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[sc];B[qc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.005613, 1, -18.572\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[oh];B[jc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.004992, 1, -18.764\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[eg];B[hp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.005462, 1, -19.346\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[po];B[qq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.007571, 1, -16.286\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 0, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[es];B[rp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.0057, 1, -19.929\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[lf];B[qk]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.005289, 1, -18.229\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[hj];B[dj]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.004208, 1, -18.442\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[jp];B[iq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00408, 1, -19.525\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[fn];B[fp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.003957, 1, -20.615\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ki];B[fc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001999, 1, -23.314\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[me];B[je]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001546, 1, -23.745\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[nq];B[lq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001216, 1, -25.095\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ld];B[ke]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001838, 1, -23.264\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[nm];B[nk]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.002072, 1, -22.681\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[gd];B[gc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.002105, 1, -25.909\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[gm];B[ln]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001266, 1, -28.581\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[jr];B[jq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.0009270000000000001, 1, -35.214\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[bn];B[bo]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000662, 1, -35.502\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[kn];B[bm]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000513, 1, -36.812\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[of];B[om]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000492, 1, -35.967\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ok];B[ol]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000305, 1, -40.714\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[qf];B[oi]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000316, 1, -37.793\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[dr];B[cq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000333, 1, -37.078\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[mn];B[lo]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000513, 1, -40.368\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 1, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[oc];B[an]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.0008639999999999999, 1, -30.367\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ka];B[lb]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000503, 1, -39.113\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[rc];B[rd]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000268, 1, -44.166\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[da];B[fe]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000238, 1, -42.913\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[jg];B[lk]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00024399999999999997, 1, -48.124\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[kq];B[kr]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000442, 1, -43.686\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[kp];B[ir]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000363, 1, -39.7\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 2, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[bb];B[js]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000342, 1, -45.096\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[cp];B[dq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000272, 1, -48.797\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ha];B[he]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000395, 1, -47.143\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go];B[mp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000223, 1, -52.706\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[no];B[np]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000206, 1, -51.72\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[oa];B[nb]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00019100000000000003, 1, -56.998\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[ma];B[la]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000144, 1, -60.063\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[mk];B[rb]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000137, 1, -60.771\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[lh];B[oo]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [8.800000000000001e-05, 1, -66.166\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 3, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[el];B[pn]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [7e-05, 1, -60.209\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[mb];B[lc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000256, 1, -54.233\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[mc];B[kc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000339, 1, -49.339\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[kd];B[jd]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000299, 1, -50.362\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[hf];B[le]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000291, 1, -49.599\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 4, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>]W[nd];B[md]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00034, 1, -48.165\], {"w": 6, "b": 0}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[ld];B[hc]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.001121, 1, -41.29\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[dl];B[fa]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000206, 1, -44.542\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[mo];B[lp]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00021700000000000002, 1, -49.204\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[pa];B[pk]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000307, 1, -41.227\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 6, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[er];B[oj]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000285, 1, -45.963\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[ck];B[bk]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000389, 1, -44.176\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[bi];B[bj]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000213, 1, -47.225\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[jn];B[sb]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000155, 1, -52.936\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 7, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[jl];B[sd]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [9.499999999999999e-05, 1, -53.019\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[ai];B[qe]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000145, 1, -51.495\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[qj];B[rf]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000129, 1, -53.754\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[od];B[oe]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000161, 1, -53.267\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[bp];B[ap]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000154, 1, -53.851\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[rg];B[sg]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.00016, 1, -52.32\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[ri];B[pf]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [6.8e-05, 1, -59.811\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 9, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[gr];B[qg]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [5.9e-05, 1, -58.723\], {"w": 10, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 10, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[id];B[hd]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [5.3e-05, 1, -60.812\], {"w": 10, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 10, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[li];B[rh]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [6.2e-05, 1, -62.63\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[bg];B[pe]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [7.6e-05, 1, -62.501\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[nf];B[pb]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [7e-05, 1, -57.32\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[bq];B[ob]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000245, 1, -47.026\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[cr];B[aq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000299, 1, -44.486\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[lm];B[bs]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.000634, 1, -40.658\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[br];B[ar]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.006687000000000001, 1, -32.437\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[mf];
B[qa]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.004325, 1, -32.171\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 11, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[do];B[na]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.281557, 1, -2.923\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[bl];B[al]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.21501599999999998, 1, -2.5\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[cl];
B[aj]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.9868739999999999, 1, 13.395\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]
;C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[gp];
B[gq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.993503, 1, 13.59\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[fq];B[hq]
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.997605, 1, 22.997\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>];
C[<BadukAI>[[\], [\], [0.5, 0, 0.0\], {"w": 13, "b": 1}\]</BadukAI>]W[ph])[/go]

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:00 am
by Jika
Yesterday I tried the way explained in "How to post SGF" (upload, then copy link and use sgf-full].
This showed a correct preview but threw an error on submitting.
Now, trying to post the Sgf directly with sgf tag, it seems that only white's moves are displayed.
Maybe the format is not really compatible?
Thank you for your help.

A note regarding the game: while it is embarrassing per se, I should add that I know I resigned too late and acted foolish around the big dead group. Often I think, well, this is lost, but maybe I can still find a way to make this group live or put up a fight there. Just ignore those last parts of the game.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:01 am
by kvasir
Is this the game? I tried to remove the comments, I know the sgf widget doesn't like some characters.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:56 am
by kvasir
Try to think of your groups as houses. The house has an inside which is your territory if you can keep the opponent outside. The border between the inside and the outside are the walls and the roof. To keep the opponent from moving in you need fill in the gaps in the border, block the entrances, it is the only way to do it. That is the first thing, the second thing is when the opponent tries to move in, then you need to stop them from knocking down the walls and crawling through any holes, otherwise the house is gone.

The most important thing then is to block up the border between the inside of the house and the outside, that is not to say that it is not sometimes a good move to play on the inside, it is that you need block up the border to have any hope of keeping the opponent out.

Take this example
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . O X O . O O . . .|
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . X O X . . . X X|
$$ | . . . . . X X X . X X X O X O . X . .|
$$ | . . O , . . O . . X . O . O O X . X X|
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X O . X . X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . O . O X .|
$$ | . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O . . O . O . .|
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . .|
$$ | S # . X . . . O . , . . . . X , O . .|
$$ | . # O . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . .|
$$ | . S . O O . . . . O . . . . X . . . .|
$$ | . # . . . . O . . . . . . O X . . . .|
$$ | X . # . . O . . . O O X O . . X . . .|
$$ | . X . S . . O O . . . X O O X . X . .|
$$ | . 1 O # S # S # . O O X X X . X . X .|
$$ | . . X X . . . . # # O X . O . X X . .|
$$ | . . . O O . . . X . # . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . . . . O . . . . X S . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]
Somehow it turned into this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . O X O X . . X . .|
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . X X|
$$ | . . . . . X X X . X X X O X O . X . .|
$$ | . . O , . . O X O X . O . O O X . X X|
$$ | . . . . . X . X . X X X O . X X X . .|
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O O O O X . X .|
$$ | . O O . O . . . . O . . . . . . X . X|
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . O . . O . O X .|
$$ | O O . . . . . . . . O O . . X . . O .|
$$ | # # . X . . . O . , . . . . X , O . .|
$$ | . # O . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . .|
$$ | X @ O O O . . . . O . . . . X . . . .|
$$ | . # . . . . O . . . . O . O X . . . .|
$$ | X . # . . O . . . O O X O . . X . . .|
$$ | . X . @ . . O O . . . X O O X . X . .|
$$ | X O O # S # @ # . O O X X X . X . X .|
$$ | X O X X . O X 1 # # O X . O . X X . .|
$$ | X O O O O . O . X . # . . . . . . . .|
$$ | . X . . O . . . . X S . . . . . . . .|
$$ +--------------------------------------+[/go]
The original border of the group is marked. Black could easily have played on this border and white would never have been able to wreck all of the territory. I think it is simply a matter of slowing down and realizing that it is OK to take care of your own groups by playing moves that simply close the border between their inside and outside (and it is actually what endgame is about, besides life and death). The mantra is "safety first" not "no safety" :)

Of course it takes lot of practice to find the right balance and the right balance changes when you improve.

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:21 am
by Jika
Thanks a lot.

Yes, that part and earlier, before white is creeping into all the places I thought might become black's is what I was talking about.
What should I do if white invades what I mapped out so nicely?
Do I get you right to just close the gaps in my borders?
I get panicked and think, now I need to stop white and make eyes or all this potential space will belong to white.

BadukAI can use the Katrain Graded rank bot and can be set to up to (or down to?) 30k, this was the 30k setting.
Seeing how I got beaten up, what should I practice first?

Re: How to improve on this

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:22 am
by kvasir
Yes, close the gaps. You will learn soon that there are gaps that can be pushed through, that can only be cut (so that neither player is then connected) and that are perfectly connected (it would take two or more moves in a row to push through). It will be a matter of skill to decide when then border is safe enough. This kind of border play is also closely linked to life and death, seeing when it is possible to live on the inside or not can be difficult.

In that game it looked like you would win easily if you just sure to keep the border of your territories. It also goes both ways, if there is a chance to move into the opponents border it is sometimes a good idea. Basically, toward the end of the game the only moves left are on the border of clearly defined groups making it incredibly important to be able to close the borders.

You might want to play on small boards, like 9x9 or 13x13, until you feel more confident about this aspect of the game. Also try to play human players instead of bots :) There is a phone app called GoQuest that is very popular for quick 9x9 and 13x13 online games.
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