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Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it out
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:42 am
by sholvar
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/1/13/asdfman-JayGo.sgf
I think move 9 is not a good move pincering in the middle of 2 stones. Although there is the weakness of this invasion my feeling says black plays too early there. But I can't figure out, how to counter it. Maybe I sacrificed the wrong stone? Stretching the other one allows some more efficient attack to the corner. Or should I not go into the corner but instead play M5? Doesn't feel so big. Sorry, but this kind of thing didn't happen in a long time. Can't offer more then "feeling".
Re: Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:06 am
by amnal
sholvar wrote:
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2011/1/13/asdfman-JayGo.sgf
I think move 9 is not a good move pincering in the middle of 2 stones. Although there is the weakness of this invasion my feeling says black plays too early there. But I can't figure out, how to counter it. Maybe I sacrificed the wrong stone? Stretching the other one allows some more efficient attack to the corner. Or should I not go into the corner but instead play M5? Doesn't feel so big. Sorry, but this kind of thing didn't happen in a long time. Can't offer more then "feeling".
Black's 'invasion' is fine. White's long extension is also fine. But you do pull out the wrong stone - by moving out at F5 you would make miai of G6 and J4.
Re: Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:12 am
by Mnemonic
Wait! The upper right invasion by black. Can't you kill that? I think I read somewhere that you have to play ko to survive.
$$B Ko like this?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 3 . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Ko like this?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ . . . . 4 3 . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
$$B Does this kill?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 3 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 1 9 . |
$$ . . . . . O 7 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Does this kill?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 3 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 1 9 . |
$$ . . . . . O 7 6 . |
$$ . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
$$Bm11 cont.
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . 4 . 1 . |
$$ . . . . O X X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O X X 3 |
$$ . . . . . O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 cont.
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . 4 . 1 . |
$$ . . . . O X X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O X X 3 |
$$ . . . . . O X O . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
What am I missing?
Re: Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:19 am
by serapis
(;GM[1]AP[StoneBase:SGFParser.3.0.1]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]HA[0]KM[0.50]TM[900]PB[JayGo]BR[4k]PW[asdfman]WR[3k]RE[B+6.50]DT[2011-01-13]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]C[asdfman [3k]: hf
JayGo [4k]: hi
]
;B[dp];W[pd];B[pq];W[dd];B[qo];W[jq]
(;B[lq]C[pressuring from this direction is also fine.];W[fq]C[3 space extention is normal];B[hq]C[splitting should be expected, and a good move. It forces white to decide how he's going to defend.]
(;W[jo]C[Wrong answer.];B[ho];W[cq]C[This sort of thing is a classic mistake often made by kyu players. You just put 3 stones on the bottom of the board, and now you're diving in the corner, effectively leaving them all to die.
It's an understandable mistake. You've no doubt practiced life and death problems for quite some time. You're confident that your 2 stones can still live. Trouble is, at what cost are you going to flail about having them live? And are you going to simply end up resigning after having achived life.];B[dq];W[cp];B[do];W[dr];B[er];W[cr];B[fr];W[cn];B[dn];W[cm];B[lo];W[jm];B[hm];W[jd];B[lm];W[jk];B[qj];W[qf];B[lk];W[hj];B[qc];W[pc];B[pb];W[ob];B[qb];W[qd];B[rd];W[re];B[sc];W[pa];B[rb];W[cf];B[fc];W[ec];B[eb];W[db];B[ed];W[dc];B[fd];W[gb];B[fb];W[hc];B[gc];W[ib];B[de];W[ce];B[nc];W[oc];B[md];W[le];B[me];W[lf];B[mf];W[lg];B[mg];W[mh];B[nh];W[ni];B[oh];W[li];B[oi];W[of];B[ng];W[ff];B[hd];W[id];B[gf];W[fg];B[gg];W[fh];B[gh];W[gi];B[kh];W[ki];B[lh];W[mi];B[jg];W[ld];B[ie];W[je];B[if];W[he];B[ge];W[jh];B[hf];W[fe];B[ih];W[kg];B[hh];W[jf];B[ig];W[el];B[ee];W[dg];B[fl];W[em];B[fm];W[en];B[fp];W[fo];B[go];W[dm];B[fk];W[ek];B[fj];W[ej];B[fi];W[ei];B[hi];W[ep];B[gp];W[eq];B[ij];W[jj];B[jn];W[kn];B[km];W[in];B[jl];W[il];B[kl];W[im];B[ik];W[oj];B[nj];W[pj];B[pi];W[qk];B[pk];W[ok];B[pl];W[ql];B[ol];W[nk];B[mj];W[rj];B[qi];W[pm];B[om];W[qn];B[pn];W[qm];B[po];W[ro];B[rp];W[ri];B[rh];W[sm];B[si];W[sk];B[rn];W[so];B[sp];W[sn];B[io];W[mc];B[ii];W[fn];B[gn];W[pg];B[qg];W[rg];B[qh];W[se];B[sd];W[es];B[gq];W[eo];B[gs];W[ir];B[kp];W[da];B[ga];W[hb];B[nd];W[nb];B[sg];W[rf];B[ef];W[ds];B[qa];W[sj];B[sh];W[oe];B[eg];W[eh];B[oa];W[na];B[ji];W[lj];B[mk];W[kj];B[kh];W[og];B[ha];W[ia];B[fa];W[fs];B[gr];W[lh];B[jh];W[kk];B[nl];W[pa];B[lc];W[mb];B[oa];W[sb];B[sa];W[pa];B[rl];W[rm];B[oa];W[qp];B[qq];W[pa];B[sl];W[rk];B[oa];W[rq];B[pp];W[pa];B[jc];W[jb];B[oa];W[sq];B[qp];W[pa];B[cd];W[cc];B[oa];W[tt];B[pa];W[tt];B[tt]C[asdfman [3k]: ty
JayGo [4k]: thx
])
(;W[fo]LB[dp:A][hq:B]C[Jumping up is a much better solution. White has forced black to decide which stone is more valuable, A or B.]
(;B[cn]LB[dr:A][ip:B]C[Corner stone is, of course, more valuable and white is now faced with a decision. Have to decide what the plan is. Do we want just a base here with B or get some corner with A.]
(;W[dr]C[Corner is most common answer.];B[ip]C[B will prevent you from getting both corner and stone as that base is too nice for white];W[cq];B[ck]C[White follows up and black extends to settle. All of this has been Joseki.])
(;W[ip]C[Playable, though generally regarded as a bit of a special move.];B[dr]C[Black can threaten to link up under which is generally unfavorable.];W[hp]C[White is typically forced to respond which gives black sente and nice territory.]))
(;B[dn]C[note the difference with this compared to the small knight.];W[dr];B[ip];W[cq];B[ck]TR[bn]C[Bottom area is still very much open to white further extending.])))
(;B[cf]C[Entirely more than you wanted to know, but i figured since you had questions on the orthodox fuseki, it stood to reason that you may (eventually) raise more questions on the commonly seen variations when they arise.
Here, is also a fine move by black, seeking to answer what white intends to do.];W[fc];B[gq];W[mq];B[dj]C[backing off can lead to a framework for black. ]))
Re: Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:15 pm
by Magicwand
sholvar wrote:I think move 9 is not a good move pincering in the middle of 2 stones. Although there is the weakness of this invasion my feeling says black plays too early there. But I can't figure out, how to counter it. Maybe I sacrificed the wrong stone? Stretching the other one allows some more efficient attack to the corner. Or should I not go into the corner but instead play M5? Doesn't feel so big. Sorry, but this kind of thing didn't happen in a long time. Can't offer more then "feeling".
9 is fine but i think 11 is wrong.
i would play 12 at H2.
Re: Something's wrong with this opening, but can't figure it
Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:57 pm
by sholvar
Thanks for all your answers. Yes, the L&D in the corner was also played wrong by both players. I didn't think enough how to kill it. Played like it would kill itself alone.
Thanks for showing me an alternatives, that actually look like a game.
And no, I didn't do a lot of L&D to get to 3k, like most others. My L&D is a lot worse then for most of my rankmates. I normally win by playing the globally better game (or lose by getting killed very big. Letting 95 or 135 points die in the endgame can happen). With some variations I have no experience and so can't play them well, though. But that is why I ask you guys, right?
The strange moves we see from weaker players are most often made, because they can't make a plan in that situation and they fall back to a combination they might even feel as worse but at least they know how to play it.
Magicwand wrote:9 is fine but i think 11 is wrong.
i would play 12 at H2.
If I interprete that correctly, black also pushed its wrong side?