The discussion of O Meien's book didn't go as far as hoped, but I like the idea of getting together in the forum and studying a particular book over time. One of my favorite go books is "Golden Opportunities" by Rin Kaiho. The stories make it a fun book to read, but the problems themselves I've always found quite challenging, many are over my head. Since John Fairbairn was translator, he might perhaps be willing to lead the discussion, or at least make sure we stay on the right side of copyright violation
What do y'all think?
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:47 pm
by imabuddha
Good choice of books.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:02 am
by kirkmc
I've got a copy of that (old, and the binding is falling apart...), and I'd be willing to join in the fun.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:39 am
by Chew Terr
Emerald: Would you mind explaining a little of what you like about Golden Opportunities? It's a book I've always seen online but never really stood out in my mind... Wouldn't mind an excuse to try a new book, if your reasons sound appealing to me.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:38 am
by emeraldemon
From the introduction:
Go is a drawn-out game. Opportunities to create some sort of ascendancy appear scores of times, and even opportunities significant enough to determine the outcome of the game are sure to occur several times in a single game.
The basic theme of the book is that we should train to recognize these Golden Opportunities. The book has 2 parts. The first part discusses types of tesuji and thinking that help bring about opportunities. The second part alternates between stories and problems, and I think that's the most interesting. Each problem refers back to the story, and I think it helps the problems and ideas stick in my mind.
For example, there's a short explaination about the Louisiana purchase, and how Jefferson siezed an opportunity to get lots of virgin land. Then there's this:
Rin Kaiho goes into great depth explaining the situation, 13 diagrams. A huge fight runs across the board, and in the end black sacrifices a 9-stone group in exchange for a massive wall. In the end he says:
Perhaps there are people who are thinking, "How can you be sure of winning by giving up such a large group to white?" but this can be thought of as the payment of $15,000,000 America made for the purchase of Louisiana. If anything, the compensation of nine stones is perhaps on the small side!
That's the basic format: a story (most are about Japanese history or literature), followed by in-depth analysis of a problem or position that in some way relates to the story. I think the stories make the study more enjoyable, and the idea is something I certainly need to work on. Many of the problems are amateur games, where he shows the "obvious" amateur play, then the opportunity they missed. Looking at them I know I would also have missed most of these opportunities.
Like I said, it's one of my favorite books, so of course I think you should read it . The problems themselves are tough, I often fail to find the solution even on my second or third time reading the book. In some ways it's less about reading practice and more about getting the right attitude.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:25 pm
by emeraldemon
I got a little bit of positive feedback about this, so I'm going to go ahead and try it out. The first chapter is about tesuji, which John Fairbairn translates as "finesse". I'm going to post an excerpt from the text, some problems, and then my questions, so that hopefully we can get some study discussion going.
Rin Kaiho wrote:The sort of skill needed to see [tesuji] is generally thought to result from differences in reading ability, but in fact this is not so. It is something quite separate. It is the kind of sensitivity known as intuition, and not just pros but even many amateurs have acquired such skill. The point is, anybody can do it with due diligence. And it does not require as much effort as is normally thought. So how do we learn to grasp the vital points and vantage points intuitively? For that it is necessary to encounter such shapes as much as possible. Omitting the reason why this is the vital point and so on, one simply learns by heart the fact that in such and such a shape it is the vital point. When I say learn by heart, I mean nothing more onerous than looking repeatedly at diagrams until the answer appears instantaneously. It is by no means a difficult thing to do. ... At any rate, go is the sort of game where we can say that learning from shapes is the fastest way to improve. In that sense then, this book will offer problems that, above all, develop your intuition. ... Problem 1: There is only one vital point to rescue the five black stones. Once you have discovered it, the solution comes out easily.
$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O . . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------
[go]$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O . . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------[/go]
Ok, my questions for the group: 1) The implication of this problem is that there's a particular vital point for each, and if you know it the problem is easy. So how many people knew the tesuji? If your first guess wasn't correct, what was your first guess?
2) Basically Rin Kaiho suggests that the fastest way to improve is to memorize solutions, without necessarily reading them each time, just to learn vital points. Do you agree? It actually seems quite different from the "never look at the answer" school of tsumego.
After this are 4 more "intuition problems", of the sort that are supposed to be easy if your intuition is good. I'll add those after a few people respond to this
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:41 pm
by amnal
emeraldemon wrote:I got a little bit of positive feedback about this, so I'm going to go ahead and try it out. The first chapter is about tesuji, which John Fairbairn translates as "finesse". I'm going to post an excerpt from the text, some problems, and then my questions, so that hopefully we can get some study discussion going.
Rin Kaiho wrote:The sort of skill needed to see [tesuji] is generally thought to result from differences in reading ability, but in fact this is not so. It is something quite separate. It is the kind of sensitivity known as intuition, and not just pros but even many amateurs have acquired such skill. The point is, anybody can do it with due diligence. And it does not require as much effort as is normally thought. So how do we learn to grasp the vital points and vantage points intuitively? For that it is necessary to encounter such shapes as much as possible. Omitting the reason why this is the vital point and so on, one simply learns by heart the fact that in such and such a shape it is the vital point. When I say learn by heart, I mean nothing more onerous than looking repeatedly at diagrams until the answer appears instantaneously. It is by no means a difficult thing to do. ... At any rate, go is the sort of game where we can say that learning from shapes is the fastest way to improve. In that sense then, this book will offer problems that, above all, develop your intuition. ... Problem 1: There is only one vital point to rescue the five black stones. Once you have discovered it, the solution comes out easily.
$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O . . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------
[go]$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O . . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------[/go]
Ok, my questions for the group: 1) The implication of this problem is that there's a particular vital point for each, and if you know it the problem is easy. So how many people knew the tesuji? If your first guess wasn't correct, what was your first guess?
2) Basically Rin Kaiho suggests that the fastest way to improve is to memorize solutions, without necessarily reading them each time, just to learn vital points. Do you agree? It actually seems quite different from the "never look at the answer" school of tsumego.
After this are 4 more "intuition problems", of the sort that are supposed to be easy if your intuition is good. I'll add those after a few people respond to this
$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O 1 . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------
[go]$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O 1 . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B . . . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------[/go]
1) I saw this immediately as the only move worth trying. Black can clearly get nowhere by crawling, because I can see there aren't 8 or even 7 of the spaces necessary to live there. Doing anything that doesn't touch the white group allows white to just descend, so even if black's move is powerful and kills another important stone, it doesn't solve the problem and isn't worth thinking about . Touching the group on top allows the descent anyway, leaving just a single move worth trying.
2) I saw this move based on the shape alone, which I assume is instinct based on seeing it many times before in my own games and understanding what it likely to work. I can see that black cannot crawl, and feel that the single stone at D4 has not enough oomph to do anything on its own. To this extent, I'm sure Rin Kaiho is correct about good practice to learn - that is the way to feel what the correct move is, even if reading is necessary to work out if your intuition is correct.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:44 pm
by Dusk Eagle
$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O X O O B . . . O . . $$ | . O X X X . . . O . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------
[go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . X , . . . $$ | . O O X O O B . . . O . . $$ | . O X X X . . . O . . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------[/go]
The implication of this problem is that there's a particular vital point for each, and if you know it the problem is easy. So how many people knew the tesuji? If your first guess wasn't correct, what was your first guess?
Assuming I'm right (and I'm pretty sure I am), I saw the solution instantly. I then spent a bit of time to verify it.
Basically Rin Kaiho suggests that the fastest way to improve is to memorize solutions, without necessarily reading them each time, just to learn vital points. Do you agree? It actually seems quite different from the "never look at the answer" school of tsumego.
I think there is value in seeing the same tesuji over and over. I had to see the nose tesuji several times before I started to look for it myself.
I still think there is value in doing tsumego. Especially if I've thought about the question for a long time, I find the answer sticks a lot better. I personally do not agree that you should "never look at the answer", but I try to ensure that I am not looking at the answer as a cop-out for reading. To ensure this, if I can't solve a tsumego after a lot of effort, I'll leave it and come back to it later. If even after repeated viewings I can't solve it, then I'll look at the answer.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:47 pm
by Solomon
Golden Opportunities is the only Go book I've read multiple times, it's just that good - for both improvement and entertainment value. Definitely a good choice.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:59 pm
by Mnemonic
1) The implication of this problem is that there's a particular vital point for each, and if you know it the problem is easy. So how many people knew the tesuji? If your first guess wasn't correct, what was your first guess?
$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X 4 . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O 1 . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B 2 3 . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------
[go]$$B Problem 1 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . O . X . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X 4 . . X , . . . $$ | . O O B O O 1 . . . O . . $$ | . O B B B 2 3 . O . . . . $$ | . B . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ --------------------------[/go]
My first instinct was that the group was dead I've seen the tesuji before but I haven't internalized it yet. I might see the solution in a tournament game, but not in a 10 min KGS session.
2) Basically Rin Kaiho suggests that the fastest way to improve is to memorize solutions, without necessarily reading them each time, just to learn vital points. Do you agree? It actually seems quite different from the "never look at the answer" school of tsumego.
I think vital points are important but I don't agree with memorizing them. IMO beginners should do a lot of problems where the answer is the vital point until they have internalized it and then start doing similar problems where the answer isn’t always the vital point. That way they first learn to recognize the vital point but to always back up their first instinct with reading.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:17 pm
by emeraldemon
Ok, it seems people mostly knew the first tesuji, but how will you do on these? By the way, Rin Kaiho calls the last tesuji "tweaking the goblin's nose", which I like. I will say problem B gave me a lot of trouble the first time I saw it. After these four is the first longer example. I guess maybe these are to give you a gauge of the kind of intuition you need. All four are black to play.
$$B Problem A $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . X . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ | . X X O . X . . $$ | . . . . O X . . $$ | . . . . . X . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | . . . O X . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:08 pm
by emerus
emeraldemon wrote:
$$B Problem A $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . X . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ | . X X O . X . . $$ | . . . B O X . . $$ | . . . . . X . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem A $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . X . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ | . X X O . X . . $$ | . . . B O X . . $$ | . . . . . X . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | B . . O X . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | B . . O X . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . . . B . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . . . B . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . B . O . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . B . O . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
B and D are ko? I hope I'm not too embarrassing to 2kyus across the globe.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:42 am
by Dusk Eagle
$$B Problem A $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O . . X . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ | . X X O . X . . $$ | . . . 1 O X . . $$ | . . . . . X . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | 1 2 . O X . . . $$ | . . O . 3 . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . 3 2 1 . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem C $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X X . . . $$ | . O X O O O . . $$ | . X O X X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . X O . X O . . $$ | . 3 2 1 . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . 1 . O . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem D $$ | . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O . . . $$ | . X X X O . . . $$ | . X O O X . X . $$ | . O . O X . . . $$ | . 1 . O . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
I think I have these all right. The only one I have any doubt about is Problem D, as it looks like a ko, and I'm not sure if there's anything better. I saw the answers to C and D the second I looked at them (which isn't to brag, its simply relevant to the point Rin Kai Ho is making about knowing shapes by heart).
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:54 pm
by emeraldemon
I should have specified, B and D are both ko.
Re: Suggestion for Group Study - Golden Opportunities
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:51 am
by emeraldemon
emerus & Dusk Eagle have the answers right, if you're curious you can look in the hide tags. I wanted to talk briefly about B, because I found it the trickiest when I first looked at the book:
I actually think is the hard part in this sequence, it's a slightly tricky descent to see:
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | 1 2 . O X . . . $$ | . . O . 3 . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | 1 2 . O X . . . $$ | . . O . 3 . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
White can try to fight this way:
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | X O . O X . . . $$ | . 5 O 4 X . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | X O . O X . . . $$ | . 5 O 4 X . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
but you also have to deal with this resistance:
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | X O 6 O X . . . $$ | 4 7 O 5 X . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | X O 6 O X . . . $$ | 4 7 O 5 X . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
Now black can't play the squashing move due to shortage of liberties. I think taking the ko also works:
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | 6 O O X . X . . $$ | X O . O X . . . $$ | 4 5 O 7 X . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | 6 O O X . X . . $$ | X O . O X . . . $$ | 4 5 O 7 X . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
Now if white takes the two stones with ,
$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | O O O X . X . . $$ | . O 9 O X . . . $$ | 8 . O X X . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B Problem B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X . . . . . $$ | . O X X . . . . $$ | O O O X . X . . $$ | . O 9 O X . . . $$ | 8 . O X X . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
A different ko starts.
It's interesting to note that one dame is the difference between ko and life in this shape.
$$B White to play and live $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . . . . $$ | . O . X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | B . . O X . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------
[go]$$B White to play and live $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . . . . $$ | . O . X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . $$ | B . . O X . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------[/go]
Tune in soon for some exciting stuff about order of moves!
. The problems themselves are tough, I often fail to find the solution even on my second or third time reading the book. In some ways it's less about reading practice and more about getting the right attitude.
. Touching the group on top allows the descent anyway, leaving just a single move worth trying.
I've seen the tesuji before but I haven't internalized it yet. I might see the solution in a tournament game, but not in a 10 min KGS session.
is the hard part in this sequence, it's a slightly tricky descent to see:
taking the ko also works:
,