Crushing Loss

[oso]

I suffered a crushing, crushing loss from this player. I want to improve from this game. Moves are commented in detail, and I thank everyone who takes a look at it.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[gaseimasha]PB[ano]WR[12k]C[I played this game against a guest with no rank. In any case, I thought it would be a good game, and I guess in a sense it was, but the first thing you should know was that it was an overwhelming, and I mean, overwhelmingly crushing defeat for me. I tried to talk with him after words, but he did not chat with me, and immediately left the game after I resigned.

All comments are appreciated, and I really thank everyone who reads this and comments! I will be commenting the moves as well.]RE[B+Resign]
;B[qd]
;W[pp]
;B[dd]
;W[dp]
;B[lc]LB[cf:A]C[I had originally planned to just do a light san-san opening and then approach his corner, but this opening caught me by suprise and intrigued me. The chinese opening is essentially a loose framework of stones, so an approach move around A would help him build his framework and make an invasion later less palatable. At the same time, since his black stone is at M17, an approach move around F17 would give him the perfect pincer at J17. A veritable super pincer! ouch.

While at the same time, the fact that M17 is one space closer to R16 put's an extreme amount of pressure on any invasion stone around O17 or P17. I'm thinking something like this might happen: (see variation)]
(;W[jp]LB[oc:B][jp:A]C[So after thinking for several minutes, I decided to switch from the san-san opening to the sanrensei. My choice in this is two fold: Both the chinese opening and the sanrensei are influence oriented openings, and both are frameworks. Given the chance, both can become to big. My reasoning was that If I invaded, I would be in tricky waters, but if I turned it into a big territory game, I would have a better chance. I was definitely unprepared for the hell that was about to be unleashed...]
;B[ij]C[Boom.

This move, I think, is like, "Ohhh Shiiiiiiiit...." And I never would have thought of it in a million years.

1. Invading his mini chinese would be suicide now. (Or at least, now that I now his strength, which I found out later), that center stone is very helpful in a fight. 2. The stone at J10 negates a lot of the influence that my sanrensei opening sould have had towards the center of the board.

I really don't know how to explain how I feel that this is a REALLY good move. But I think that this move he made just caused my nuts to shrivel up to the size of marbles.]
;W[oe]C[I didn't want to go in too deep.]
;B[oc]C[The result is that he get's a huge bloody side and corner, and my stone is facing a thick group. He makes a very, very solid play.]
;W[qe]C[So, what I was trying here, was I wanted to make a wall of my own to face my sanrensei. Not the best prospects, but I had to try something.]
;B[pd]
;W[pe]
;B[re]
;W[rf]
;B[rd]
;W[ki]C[Ok. Now I play L11 to help out my wall. But perhaps my group isn't quite thick enough?]
;B[ql]C[He jumps straight in with an invasion.]
;W[qn]C[I try to push him towards my wall, and get some corner territory as well.]
;B[ol]C[Ouch. I was certain that he'd extend along the side, but this was interesting. It seems that by making a wall of his own, he is negating my wall's influence. Not only that, but that wall of his might later take advantage of some ajii around N4. So now I have a weak group around Q14. My L11 stone is floating. And I have bad ajii with my sanrensei framework.

With him, he has a solid wall that get's side territory. A center stone that radiate's influence, and an invasion group with plenty of space. Dammit!]
;W[qj]C[So I take away his base.]
;B[pi]C[Eh?? This was strange. I thought he would Play one point lower. Little did I realize he was reading far, far ahead of me...]
;W[pk]
;B[ok]
;W[pl]
;B[oj]C[He sacrifices his wall!]
;W[pm]
;B[qg]C[Boooooom.]
;W[qf]
;B[rg]
;W[sf]
;B[og]C[Wow. Such a simple variation, and I walked right into it. I knew that my wall was weak. Now he is solid everywhere, and I have two weak groups.]
;W[me]
;B[mg]
;W[nd]
;B[nc]
;W[nf]
;B[ng]C[I struggled, but only succeeded in making him stronger.]
;W[ke]
;B[kg]
;W[kc]
;B[ld]
;W[le]
;B[kb]
;W[kd]
;B[jb]
;W[ie]
;B[ig]C[B+Resign

At this point, my white group was going to die. He has a huge framework covering three quarter's of the board, my sanrensei is still open to many ajii points, three quarter's of my invested stones are going to be removed from the board, and my only secure territory is a tiny part of the board in the side of the board.

This, gentlemen, is what defeat looks like.

I posted this game for a variety of Reasons. I want to get the opinion of the board on just how strong you guys think this player is? Also, It's clear to me that I definitely need to improve, and I can think of no better game to post for review than this one.

The game we played was a little out of my comfort zone. I usually play more territory oriented ones than whole board influence out matches, so I definitely apprecieate any help that is offered.])
(;W[oc]LB[oc:B][jp:A]
;B[nd]
;W[pd]
;B[pe]C[I would be in dire straits.]))

[jdl]

I wouldn't call that a crushing loss. You had a dragon snapped off (and it's questionable that it was really dead, although it was certainly very heavy). It happens all the time, especially at your level.

Move 6: Just approach at A. He's still going to have weak points all over his side that you can exploit later. You'll have to play around P16 sooner or later, but you don't need to do so immediately.

[oso]

Thank you Jdl, you got my spirits up. Although I am sad that I couldn't finish the game. I guess the strange nature of the game caused me to screw up my calculations completely. Hurr...

[amnal]

Comments added below, labelled with my username.

Don't be so pessimistic. Everything was fine until you made a silly mistake.

(;GM[1]FF[4]AP[qGo:1.5.4]ST[2]
SZ[19]HA[0]KM[6.5]PW[gaseimasha]WR[12k]PB[ano]RE[B+Resign]
C[I played this game against a guest with no rank. In any case, I thought it would be a good game, and I guess in a sense it was, but the first thing you should know was that it was an overwhelming, and I mean, overwhelmingly crushing defeat for me. I tried to talk with him after words, but he did not chat with me, and immediately left the game after I resigned. All comments are appreciated, and I really thank everyone who reads this and comments! I will be commenting the moves as well.]CA[UTF-8]RU[Japanese]
;B[qd];W[pp];B[dd];W[dp];B[lc]LB[cf:A]C[I had originally planned to just do a light san-san opening and then approach his corner, but this opening caught me by suprise and intrigued me. The chinese opening is essentially a loose framework of stones, so an approach move around A would help him build his framework and make an invasion later less palatable. At the same time, since his black stone is at M17, an approach move around F17 would give him the perfect pincer at J17. A veritable super pincer! ouch.While at the same time, the fact that M17 is one space closer to R16 put's an extreme amount of pressure on any invasion stone around O17 or P17. I'm thinking something like this might happen: (see variation)

Amnal: Don't think too hard about it . A is fine, and very normal. Your ideas about F17 are sort of correct, but black doesn't have a very strong move because M17 is very far away, so it is actually fine to play it - white can live easily there without being attacked much. Professional games almost concentrate on the bottom side here, because black Q10 or R10 makes a very strong framework (or, that's what I think, anyway) - white cannot invade the framework well because M17 is well placed. For this reason, R6 is a good move to counter black's influence whilst building some of your own. R10 is perfectly good too, playing the opint black wants to play - that's an easy to understand good move.]
(
;W[jp]LB[jp:A][oc:B]C[So after thinking for several minutes, I decided to switch from the san-san opening to the sanrensei. My choice in this is two fold: Both the chinese opening and the sanrensei are influence oriented openings, and both are frameworks. Given the chance, both can become to big. My reasoning was that If I invaded, I would be in tricky waters, but if I turned it into a big territory game, I would have a better chance. I was definitely unprepared for the hell that was about to be unleashed...

Amnal: I don't like this kind of play, because it gives black another move to carry out his plan. Black R10 or R6 now is very powerful. However, I don't think this move is bad at all, and it can't be a game losing move. Your reason for playing it is a good one - I like the way you reason yourself into playing a good move, it shows that you have thought about the game, even if the conclusion may not be the very best move.]
;B[ij]C[Boom.This move, I think, is like, "Ohhh Shiiiiiiiit...." And I never would have thought of it in a million years. 1. Invading his mini chinese would be suicide now. (Or at least, now that I now his strength, which I found out later), that center stone is very helpful in a fight. 2. The stone at J10 negates a lot of the influence that my sanrensei opening sould have had towards the center of the board.I really don't know how to explain how I feel that this is a REALLY good move. But I think that this move he made just caused my nuts to shrivel up to the size of marbles.

Amnal: Black's move is a bit high concept, and there is nothing speical about it. No opening can have its influence negated by a single floating stone in the middle - though you have to worry a bit about black's movo. I like Q10 or R10 here, because these are the places black wants to play, and also the places that help white's framework. It is not obvious that the J10 stone will be well placed in the future, but this is something that you can only learn by playing against it - don't fear it!]
;W[oe]C[I didn't want to go in too deep.

Amnal: You don't have to go in deep at all! Black really wants you to come in so he can attack. IF you don't want to go in deep, Q10 or R10 seem like a simple way to limit black's potential whilst building your own. That would be a double purpose move, but this move is a weak stone that will get attacked.]
;B[oc]C[The result is that he get's a huge bloody side and corner, and my stone is facing a thick group. He makes a very, very solid play.

Amnal: Very solid, but a bit rubbish, I think - the J10 stone is certainly doing nothing here! I think this should be at Q14, to attack white.]
;W[qe]C[So, what I was trying here, was I wanted to make a wall of my own to face my sanrensei. Not the best prospects, but I had to try something.

Amnal: This is the normal move in this shape, so good move! But you don't need to make a wall, just to treat your stones lightly.]
;B[pd]
;W[pe]C[Amnal: This is maybe okay, but it seems a bit heavy if black plays Q10 or so now (though I suspect I might be a bit too worried here). Playing Q10 or R10 is perhaps a lighter way to play.]
;B[re];W[rf];B[rd];W[ki]C[Ok. Now I play L11 to help out my wall. But perhaps my group isn't quite thick enough?

Amnal: Your group is of a good thickness, and you have achieved a great result here - black has the same corner he always had, but white has a live group! I think Q10 is good here to build your framework on the right. Your move is a bit slack if black lives easily on the right, especially if R15 comes under attack.

R13 may also be a good move, very solid, but it isn't very fast so I dont' think I like it.]
;B[ql]C[He jumps straight in with an invasion.

Amnal: Attacking the R15 group is a good plan for black. I think playing R13 is a better move for him, though, because this way white can fix his vital point and leave black under attack. Black has demonstrated bad invasion technique.]
;W[qn]C[I try to push him towards my wall, and get some corner territory as well.

Amnal: Not a bad plan, though the R15 weakness makes me mildly worried.]
;B[ol]C[Ouch. I was certain that he'd extend along the side, but this was interesting. It seems that by making a wall of his own, he is negating my wall's influence. Not only that, but that wall of his might later take advantage of some ajii around N4. So now I have a weak group around Q14. My L11 stone is floating. And I have bad ajii with my sanrensei framework.With him, he has a solid wall that get's side territory. A center stone that radiate's influence, and an invasion group with plenty of space. Dammit!

Amnal: You can't negate a wall's influence by building a weak group next to it! I think you are talking yourself into being behind. White R10 now seems to leave black with some problems, though white is not without his share. I also don't see where 'he has a solid wall that gets side territory', and why your own centre stone doesn't radiate influence just as much as his own.]
;W[qj]C[So I take away his base.

Amnal: Great]
;B[pi]C[Eh?? This was strange. I thought he would Play one point lower. Little did I realize he was reading far, far ahead of me...

Amnal: I don't think he was reading far, far ahead, I think you're just being pessimistic. This shape appears in a common joseki, that's probably why he played it.]
;W[pk]C[Amnal: Dangerous! The shape is quite bad for you here, for basically the reasons that bit you in the game. Q10 is a better shape which doesn't leave white so many cutting points of his own.]
;B[ok];W[pl];B[oj]C[He sacrifices his wall!
]
;W[pm]C[Amnal: R11 seems better, to keep connected, but black will get forcing moves.]
;B[qg]C[Boooooom.

]
;W[qf];B[rg];W[sf];B[og]C[Wow. Such a simple variation, and I walked right into it. I knew that my wall was weak. Now he is solid everywhere, and I have two weak groups.]
;W[me];B[mg];W[nd];B[nc];W[nf];B[ng]C[I struggled, but only succeeded in making him stronger.

]
;W[ke];B[kg];W[kc];B[ld];W[le];B[kb];W[kd];B[jb];W[ie];B[ig]C[B ResignAt this point, my white group was going to die. He has a huge framework covering three quarter's of the board, my sanrensei is still open to many ajii points, three quarter's of my invested stones are going to be removed from the board, and my only secure territory is a tiny part of the board in the side of the board.This, gentlemen, is what defeat looks like.I posted this game for a variety of Reasons. I want to get the opinion of the board on just how strong you guys think this player is? Also, It's clear to me that I definitely need to improve, and I can think of no better game to post for review than this one.The game we played was a little out of my comfort zone. I usually play more territory oriented ones than whole board influence out matches, so I definitely apprecieate any help that is offered.

Amnal: Well, your probably will die horribly or give him massive territory living, but this was not due to being outplayed or him being tremendously better than you in every way. It was basically you mishandling the right hand side - before that, everything was fine, but you made a bad shape (and a bad move) that was punished. I hope my comments will reassure you that you should not be so pessimistic next time - you could have avoided this situation just by being aware of black being able to cut you rather than being greedy to play Q8 and take the side solidly.]
)
(
;W[oc]LB[jp:A][oc:B]
;B[nd];W[pd];B[pe]C[I would be in dire straits.]
)
)

[Toge]

Hey. Guests can be like boxes of chocolate - you never know what you get.
Few comments about the game. I think you were over-reacting about black's moves. Even if your opponent decides to make some wild move right in the center of the board doesn't cancel the fact that the easiest places to make territory are at corners and sides.


Move 6: Sanrensei doesn't compete with territory. Both are frameworks. It's also important to understand that direct invasion to black's framework without support is exactly what black wants. Therefore support is required. I would play this move at Q10 instead, before black gets a nice double-wing there.

Move 7: I find it difficult to quantify the merits of this move. Makes some ladders josekis favourable and might support center fighting.

Move 16: White could probably defend the wall, but R13 looks like a better shape. Alternatively it's possible to extend along the right side.

Move 20: Good choice!

Move 27: Yup, that's the shape point. Move 26 at R11 should connect the groups, as well as give liberties to win capture race if black decides to play Q7 instead.

[Li Kao]

16 I would have played on the right side. Perhaps the simple r13, or perhaps a bit further down. Your group on the right is weak, especially due to the weakness at r14
21 I'd try to connect to my group on the right. Perhaps s12
30 You're too weak for that. Now it's much more urgent to stabilize your group than to prevent him from connecting. P13 or Q13 look nice.

[oso]

Wow...

Toge, Li Kao, and Amnal, I would like to thank you guys immensely. I see now that perhaps after the mistake, the game wasn't in my favor, but that I definitely...well, that I think my hard work is beginning to... to pay off.

I'm going to get better. I promise.

[topazg]

Amnal: How about P13 at ?

[amnal]

Amnal: How about P13 at ?

Seems probably okay to me, and perhaps better shape than my suggestion. I was not sure if black has a good attacking pincer after P13, but in this kind of situation I am often just too scared

[topazg]

Amnal: How about P13 at ?

Seems probably okay to me, and perhaps better shape than my suggestion. I was not sure if black has a good attacking pincer after P13, but in this kind of situation I am often just too scared

Heh, and I'm too confident at not dying, so don't take my word for it