A joseki question

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:40 am

Here is a game I played recently, as White.

This game is full of mistakes. However, my lasting impression of this game is that I failed to take advantage of the non-joseki crosscut @ B9, and then again @ B27.

After considering the problem (and finding the big error with W46 - should be at K3 to capture) I still haven't come to a satisfactory conclusion as to what is a proper response to B9 / B27. Was the extension @W10 sufficient? Or, aside from the failure @W46 is the wedge atari better? Is there another move I haven't found yet?

Thanks for any comments.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:52 am

should be P18
for it to be a joseky

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:11 am

As magicwand suggested, it is not a non-joseki cross-cut; it is joseki. My understanding of how/when to use it (and how to punish an opponent for using it at the wrong time) is too limited to offer any helpful suggestions, though.

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:13 am

This move is not in Kogo's nor on Sensei's. Can anyone point me to a resource that shows the follow-ups?

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:31 am

although it appears to be good for black it is a joseky
white have aji in the corner and black shape is pretty bad so it is joseky.
i think professionals will prefer white on below variation. (i prefer white)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X O 1 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 0 O X 7 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:33 am

aurik wrote:This move is not in Kogo's nor on Sensei's. Can anyone point me to a resource that shows the follow-ups?

Based on a database search (GoGoD combined with others), the most common variation is below. The full sequence to 16 appears in only two games, as the last few moves change ( :w16:

can be at N18, and :b17:

at R16).

This is also in the Nihon Ki-in Handbook of Star Point Joseki, which says that this is better for white locally, but can make white over-concentrated if white has a stone around J17.

Some variations appear on dailyjoseki.com.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:38 am

I played that move just yesterday. It can be good for overconcentrating white on the top side (since that won't happen here, it seems a bit weird by black, but if it is a mistake, it's not a big one).

Anyway, there's many variations, but rather than have you trust my weak strength on them, I'll show you something I discovered a little while ago (before I bought GoGoD). Go to eidogo.com and play out the joseki to this point, whether or not the variation is listed. Then, in the dropdown menu, click "Select Region" and highlight the relevant stones, being sure to include two edges of the board in your search region. You can then click search and you can search all the pro games on eidogo for that position, and see how it gets played out.

Another website you should check out is http://dailyjoseki.com/browse, created by our own daniel_the_smith, which uses the GoGoD database and shows all the moves pros have played (and how many times such moves have been played) in a given corner position.

Check them both out, they're quite useful.

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:02 pm

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:47 pm

L3 and T2 strike me as the biggest blunders in the first moves.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:06 pm

I've left a few tactical comments on the first ~60 or so moves.

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