Life In 19x19

When studying on Daily Joseki, sometimes after the main joseki another 50 moves or so will appear on the board and I will be asked to play the correct move in the new position.

Is this still considered 'joseki'? What is purpose of this as it is unlikely that any game will progress like the one that they skip to the middle of.

Perhaps I'm not fully understanding the methodology behind the site. There doesn't seem to be any supplementary material to go along with the board study, so I'm kind of lost.

Any help would be appreciated.

The idea is that you learn the common follow-ups after the joseki is complete, so you know how pros later defend or exploit a position, and get a feel for when it's good to do that.

For example, in this position white commonly later plays a defensive follow-up, which I didn't know about:



I don't think you can call the follow-up moves part of the joseki, but they are important-- I think you probably don't have a good understanding of a position if you don't have some idea of what, locally speaking, to do next.

Sometimes the system stops too soon or too late (it stops when no three games include the same next move). For those times, use the "adjust" button to make the test longer or shorter.

Does that make sense?

I did get a message about making the test longer or shorter, but I didn't really get what that meant.

It makes sense that this is to learn the follow up moves, I will just keep at it and hopefully it will start to make more sense.

Do you know also how it decides which joseki to do? Right now I am working on the Nikken Takagakari approach and the "appropriate" Joseki seems to depend on the position of stones around the other star points. I like that there is a chance to learn when to use the different variations, but I wish there was some kind of supplement explaining the theory as well. Something like Eidogo maybe?

Last night I started to post some screenshots with the relevant buttons circled, but it's vanished from my drafts folder, hm...

Basically, when you complete a test, an "adjust test" button appears; if you click on it, you'll see two boards. The first one shows the position the test starts at, and you can use the < and > buttons to make it start earlier or later (for example, if you wanted it to start out showing the first three moves instead of the first two moves). The second board shows the position the test stops at, and you can use the < and > buttons to include more or fewer moves from the game in the test. I'll try to post the screenshot I made when I get home later.

Apoah wrote:... the "appropriate" Joseki seems to depend on the position of stones around the other star points. I like that there is a chance to learn when to use the different variations, but I wish there was some kind of supplement explaining the theory as well. Something like Eidogo maybe?

Right, I don't do commentary. A large reason for that is that I've found that Kogo's/Eidogo are frequently incorrect/don't tell the whole story. It seems like a nearly impossible task keeping commentary on that many different positions accurate/up to date. So I focus on answering "What do pros actually do?" However, at some point I might look into linking to the appropriate sensei's library or Eidogo page from each position. If it's possible to automate the links, anyway!

Thanks for all the questions, I will probably add these to the FAQ on the about page.

I think Josekipedia might be better than Kogo's or Eidogo these days.

@Daniel

I didn't realize that it was your site! It is really good and I have enjoyed using it immensely. In fact, the only reason I haven't upgraded yet is because I'm afraid I would spend too much time there.

I will continue following the path. While some theory would be nice, I do enjoy figuring things out intuitively. Your program reminds me a lot of rosetta stone actually.

Keep up the good work!

hyperpape wrote:I think Josekipedia might be better than Kogo's or Eidogo these days.

Hm, there's no obvious way to link directly to a position there, but maybe I could arrange something with the creator if/when I decide to do that.

Apoah wrote:@Daniel

I didn't realize that it was your site! It is really good and I have enjoyed using it immensely. In fact, the only reason I haven't upgraded yet is because I'm afraid I would spend too much time there.

I will continue following the path. While some theory would be nice, I do enjoy figuring things out intuitively. Your program reminds me a lot of rosetta stone actually.

Keep up the good work!

I'm glad you like it! I'm a fan of Rosetta Stone, so it doesn't surprise me that it reminds you of it.

On my list is a way for people to select how much material it will give them at a time, to keep session lengths to whatever they want.

Oh, and you asked how it selects joseki: The short answer is that it's random, but proportional to how frequently pros play it, and you'll see the most frequent variations first.

This is really very good.....

Graphics smooth... well thought out pedagogy..

If your using Chrome you might need to alter your SSL settings under options..

BobC wrote:This is really very good.....

Graphics smooth... well thought out pedagogy..

Thank you, I'm glad you like it

BobC wrote:If your using Chrome you might need to alter your SSL settings under options..

I noticed this on one of my computers, also. I'm not sure why chrome sometimes doesn't include it by default-- unless I read it backwards or something, the protocol I use is actually better...

@daniel: I registered and added the following position expecting to get situations where white approaches here (such as taisha variations) instead I got positions following from - or black tenuki giving the more common 3-4 approaches. I guess I can go and add more specific variations but I was expecting it to take into account the move order when choosing variations; I'm not sure if that'd be easy to fix with your current database set-up. I'm eager to get a chance to use the new features; I like the idea of being able to study joseki with global positions being considered.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

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$$ --------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Abydos1 wrote:@daniel: I registered and added the following position expecting to get situations where white approaches here (such as taisha variations) instead I got positions following from - or black tenuki giving the more common 3-4 approaches. I guess I can go and add more specific variations but I was expecting it to take into account the move order when choosing variations; I'm not sure if that'd be easy to fix with your current database set-up. I'm eager to get a chance to use the new features; I like the idea of being able to study joseki with global positions being considered.

$$B
$$ --------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ --------------
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . , . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Ah, yeah, that's a very good point. In an effort to make things as simple as possible, I reduced the "select" interface down to one button. Code-wise, I don't think it's hard for me to do that. It's just user-interface, and actually I think I can add that option without being too confusing. I'll add this to my list, thanks.

daniel_the_smith wrote:Last night I started to post some screenshots with the relevant buttons circled, but it's vanished from my drafts folder, hm...

Basically, when you complete a test, an "adjust test" button appears; if you click on it, you'll see two boards. The first one shows the position the test starts at, and you can use the < and > buttons to make it start earlier or later (for example, if you wanted it to start out showing the first three moves instead of the first two moves). The second board shows the position the test stops at, and you can use the < and > buttons to include more or fewer moves from the game in the test. I'll try to post the screenshot I made when I get home later.

Apoah wrote:... the "appropriate" Joseki seems to depend on the position of stones around the other star points. I like that there is a chance to learn when to use the different variations, but I wish there was some kind of supplement explaining the theory as well. Something like Eidogo maybe?

Right, I don't do commentary. A large reason for that is that I've found that Kogo's/Eidogo are frequently incorrect/don't tell the whole story. It seems like a nearly impossible task keeping commentary on that many different positions accurate/up to date. So I focus on answering "What do pros actually do?" However, at some point I might look into linking to the appropriate sensei's library or Eidogo page from each position. If it's possible to automate the links, anyway!

Thanks for all the questions, I will probably add these to the FAQ on the about page.

Ah ok, I was confused because I was getting some follow-ups 20 moves later too. Does adjust affect that variation for everyone? How does that work? I definitely think knowing common follow-ups is very important otherwise you're not fully understanding a joseki. I've been noticing that since I started with a very basic position I'm getting a lot of different variations so I really don't know what to expect when I'm studying a joseki, there's still tons of variations that are possible so half the time I'm trying random variations till I get the right one; the hints sometimes help but they aren't that useful for the several moves after the 1st if I'm not familiar with the josekis. It seems like the way you've set it up it's a lot better to choose a much narrower selection of joseki to see how it's utilized instead of looking at broad positions like answers to a common approach.

I started with the 3-5 point like I showed earlier since I've been trying that out lately and wanted to see a variety of answers to white's approach move but it doesn't seem like your site is best suited to that method (not that that's a bad thing ). There's lots of ways to study joseki and I'm glad to see a site like yours which seems to offer a very good study process; I'm just trying to figure out how best to use it now .

A couple things I've noticed:

• It'd be nice if the hints were the correct colors and board orientation.
• I somehow got 6 groups in my queue on a free account (2 showed up initially so I went to add some more and it said I couldn't so I checked back and 4 more had been added to my queue)
• The remove group action on the queue page is pretty jarring with a page refresh; can't you just use jquery to remove that item? (It looks like you might be using it but it certainly looks like a page refresh I'm using chrome btw)

Also what are the specific limitations on studying using a free account?

Another good idea might be a "suggested curriculum" starting from a foundational joseki and then working out.

Abydos1 wrote:Ah ok, I was confused because I was getting some follow-ups 20 moves later too. Does adjust affect that variation for everyone? How does that work?

It's remembered separately for each user. My eventual plan is to do some datamining and set the defaults based on what other people chose.

Abydos1 wrote:I definitely think knowing common follow-ups is very important otherwise you're not fully understanding a joseki. I've been noticing that since I started with a very basic position I'm getting a lot of different variations so I really don't know what to expect when I'm studying a joseki, there's still tons of variations that are possible so half the time I'm trying random variations till I get the right one; the hints sometimes help but they aren't that useful for the several moves after the 1st if I'm not familiar with the josekis. It seems like the way you've set it up it's a lot better to choose a much narrower selection of joseki to see how it's utilized instead of looking at broad positions like answers to a common approach.

I actually use it personally to do pretty broad surveys; I added three things to my queue, one with three moves (a pincer), and two with two moves (two different approaches to 3-4 stone). But I can see what your problem is; if I added a two-space pincer as well as the one-space one, I'd never know which one to play, because often either will do. To try and address this, I added the "always start at this position" checkbox in the adjust screen. If you need the first three moves for context instead of the first two, you can do it there. (Let me know if more explanation is needed)

Abydos1 wrote:I started with the 3-5 point like I showed earlier since I've been trying that out lately and wanted to see a variety of answers to white's approach move but it doesn't seem like your site is best suited to that method (not that that's a bad thing ). There's lots of ways to study joseki and I'm glad to see a site like yours which seems to offer a very good study process; I'm just trying to figure out how best to use it now .

A couple things I've noticed:
[list]
[*] It'd be nice if the hints were the correct colors and board orientation.

Yes... I'd have to generate 16 times as many thumbnails to support that. I'll do that eventually, if I think my poor little server can handle it. (The server is currently running in a slice with 256mb of ram and a 10GB hard drive.)

Abydos1 wrote:[*] I somehow got 6 groups in my queue on a free account (2 showed up initially so I went to add some more and it said I couldn't so I checked back and 4 more had been added to my queue)

Yes, adding groups is DB intensive and slow, so I do it in the background. This means you can end up with a few more than 5, if you start a couple requests at once. I don't mind that, my intent was to let you add 2 different positions. The "tests per day" limit is the more important one.

Abydos1 wrote:[*] The remove group action on the queue page is pretty jarring with a page refresh; can't you just use jquery to remove that item? (It looks like you might be using it but it certainly looks like a page refresh I'm using chrome btw)

At first I was like, wait, I do use jquery to remove it? Then I looked at the source and I was like, oh, right. Yes, my ajax request triggers a page reload. Well, I will fix this eventually.

Abydos1 wrote:
Also what are the specific limitations on studying using a free account?

Good question, I will add this to the FAQ:

Users with free accounts may not:
* Take more than 10 tests per day, except for the first day you sign up. The first day, you're allowed 35 tests, to help you figure out what all you want in your queue.
* Select more study material while there are five or more groups currently in their queue.

Upgraded accounts motivate me to fix more bugs faster and/or add more stuff, and will eventually cause a server hardware upgrade if there are enough.

Apoah wrote:Another good idea might be a "suggested curriculum" starting from a foundational joseki and then working out.

Yes. That is a good idea. I would also like to let people choose to learn joseki based on simplicity instead of popularity. Popular with pros definitely != simple.


I wish I could do more stuff for the site faster, but I am doing this all in my spare time, so...


On another note, a bunch of people have signed up over the past 24 hours... Did I get linked somewhere or something? (Nothing unusual appears in google analytics...)

This thread has almost 300 views. Maybe that's it?