Grabbing and running

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:17 am

This was me vs a 1D on KGS. He started immediately by chasing a group in one corner while the other three were empty. I tenukied to grab territory in another corner, and then ran toward it. He cut me off. I ran a bit, then tenukied to another corner, and ran for safety there. He cut me off again. I tenukied to grab some more territory in the last remaining corner, and then ran toward it. He cut me off again. Then the fighting started.

Any comments on improving my game would be welcome. I was black.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:19 am

Any reason not to play P3 on move 5? Did you want to have a more solid wall?

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:25 am

Also, 221 seems kind of like a pass. By the way, it might be easier to review a game that you lost.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:36 am

5: I assume you were going for sente or similar here, but I think the normal P3 is fine. Black's wall is better than white's territory in the normal sequence, and I think you can be okay with that. You might also be interested in O3, which is another way to take sente or force white to make your wall very strong, but again I don't think you need to think this hard.

7: Now you're pushing form behind. I think I want to push at P3 and cut, probably at Q2 to capture his stone in a ladder, though the other way transposes to joseki and seems fine, if not quite as good as sealing white in on both sides.

I'd comment on the fight, but...well, you won anyway, and white's moves were the bad ones (mostly). Well played, it's always annoying to play an opponent who plays like this.

Edit: A few comments anyway. I think you let white get away with his overplays by not playing simple moves that leave white more problems than black.

12: Seems to aim at N5, which is fair enough. Perhaps black O6 is best straight away, to just fix the problem and leave white to save his (now weak) group. Black will also be able to aim at L3 later.

13: Clearly a big move, but I don't think it is urgent. Whoever takes control of this fight will take sente later to play somewhere else, and I'd want that to be me! Again, my best idea is fixing black's shape with O6.

15: Seems like you are trying to indirectly protect the N4 cut here, but then you don't act like it later.

19: Now you skip back as if white can still cut? I assume you are trying to prevent the O6 peep for white, but in doing so you invite very bad shape yourself. If you're going to play like this, I still think you should just play O6 earlier and leave white with more problems than black.

21: So you fix half of the cuts in your shape, in return for strengthening white's shape. I think white is getting away with his earlier overplays now, black has tried too hard with S3.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:39 am

Yeah, I really can't understand why you played 5 the way you did. Look at move 30 and it appears what you played was 30 points worse than the normal sequence would have been, and for what? You didn't even get sente!

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:41 am

Kirby wrote:Any reason not to play P3 on move 5? Did you want to have a more solid wall?

Yes. The more room that there is on the rest of the board, the more a wall is worth. But his territory is the same.

Kirby wrote:Also, 221 seems kind of like a pass.

I must play 221 sooner or later. The toe bone is connected...

My dragon has one eye. The only way to live is to kill his C14 group. To do this, I must start and win the ko at A15/A16. And to do that, I have to kill his D18 stones. And I have to do all of this while my dragon has liberties to spare.

Kirby wrote:By the way, it might be easier to review a game that you lost.

Maybe. In those games I can often find my own mistakes. But the way to really improve is to have somone show you why the moves that won - that you think were good - were really no good. I can often improve my worst play with sufficient reflection. I want someonne to improve my best play.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:45 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:Any reason not to play P3 on move 5? Did you want to have a more solid wall?

Yes. The more room that there is on the rest of the board, the more a wall is worth. But his territory is the same.

Huh? The normal sequence gives you a more complete wall than the one you got (it's nearly a wall in two directions!), and leaves white with less points than he got.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:48 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:...

I must play 221 sooner or later. The toe bone is connected...

Still seems a bit early to me. I think you only need to play it once it is necessary to play it.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:...

Maybe. In those games I can often find my own mistakes. But the way to really improve is to have somone show you why the moves that won - that you think were good - were really no good. I can often improve my worst play with sufficient reflection. I want someonne to improve my best play.

Interesting perspective... I don't usually find it as useful, but that might be because I don't always play my best when I am ahead.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:49 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Kirby wrote:Any reason not to play P3 on move 5? Did you want to have a more solid wall?

Yes. The more room that there is on the rest of the board, the more a wall is worth. But his territory is the same.

I don't think there's an easy way to make a wall that's bigger than the standard 3-3 invasion one. I thought your move was to try to take sente in return for a smaller wall (but white potentially doesn't get the hane at the bottom in sente). Black only gets a monodirectional wall, though.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:24 am

Ok, you guys have completely trashed my first 30 moves.

Thanks.
What about the rest of the game?

aurik · Post by **aurik** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:28 am

Keeping in mind that I'm not all that good and prone to misreads, here's a few moves that caught my eye.

Didn't really understand the b51 b53 sequence. What was your goal here?

Was b199 necessary?
What about b203 at d11?

b221 seems just a prudent move to secure a large lead. Score at this point is around what, B+40?

After you fill A16, your dragon is completely alive. You don't need to fill the false eyes or internal liberties to capture W group because W cannot ever bring your dragon to atari from the D14 side.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:03 am

I'm a bit confused by 243 and a few of your moves after that.
It looks to me that you could have made a few points more during these moves, and especially 243 looks like a typical pass.

You have a lot of moves left that are more worth than that or am I missing something?
If you were worried that he can kill you first, then why did you play 241 in the first place?

I'm a very weak player so I could be missing some obvious things^^

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:19 am

Another bit of hijacking by a weaker player: can anyone explain O6?

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:27 am

hyperpape wrote:Another bit of hijacking by a weaker player: can anyone explain O6?

I think O6 is a bad move. I don't know why Joaz played it, but it's probably to prevent white peeping here if black just blocks directly.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think this is a bad way to play, and that black should play differently earlier if he wants to attack white. O6 leaves two cuts, and forces black to improve white's shape in multiple places in order to stop these cuts working.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:34 am

blade90 wrote:I'm a bit confused by 243 and a few of your moves after that.
It looks to me that you could have made a few points more during these moves, and especially 243 looks like a typical pass.

You have a lot of moves left that are more worth than that or am I missing something?
If you were worried that he can kill you first, then why did you play 241 in the first place?

I'm a very weak player so I could be missing some obvious things^^

I think black was under time pressure. You should be confused by some of those moves, as they don't make much sense. The important thing to realize is that black has to have enough liberties to win the capturing race, and black really doesn't want to fight a ko to win it. But black can just fill D14 and E14 and then white suffers double ko death.

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