Inspired by Inkwolf's questions about responding to an invasion ( viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4021 ), I thought I would give a try to a few more perceptual learning problems ( viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4006 ). (Not that I am sure that they fit the perceptual learning rubric. )
$$B Invasion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B Invasion $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X , . . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After invades, White plays kikashi on the right side.
$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Next, White replied with one of the following two moves. Quickly guess which play White made.
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O , O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$W Honinbo Jowa (W) vs. Mizutani Takujun $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . 6 4 5 . X . 2 O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O 7 O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Honinbo Jowa (W) vs. Mizutani Takujun $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . 6 4 5 . X . 2 O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . O 7 O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Game continuation.
White lets Black take the corner.
$$Bm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . 7 X X O 4 X . X O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . 5 O O O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . O . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . 8 . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bm8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 1 2 . . O . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . 7 X X O 4 X . X O . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . 5 O O O . . . . , . . X X O O X . . | $$ | . 6 . . . . O . . . O . . O O . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . | $$ | . . O X . X . 8 . . . . O O X O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . O X X X O . . | $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . | $$ | . X . X O O . O . . . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . O X O X . . . . . . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O O . . . . X X O X O . . | $$ | . . X X O O O X O , . . X O O X O . . | $$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . X O O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Thanks Bill i got 0/3 (less than a random monkey ) ... and i am not even surprised.
what do you call perceptual learning ?
Edit: i add my feeble reasoning that led to the wrong answers:
first diag: the kikashi sequence on the left gave W power on the left so i thought the stage was set to chase the B group in the center and maybe kill it / take point by chasing. never tought of closing the center second: i thought that the stones on the right needed a little help
third: my choice was rather random i think
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:45 am
by Li Kao
I think this learning technique only works for moves that are obvious at a glance for stronger players. Are these moves obvious to you Bill?
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:31 am
by Magicwand
Li Kao wrote:I think this learning technique only works for moves that are obvious at a glance for stronger players. Are these moves obvious to you Bill?
those are the first instinct moves and readings of strong players. one can try to find a variation that is more complicated and more effective but there is no reason for that.
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:44 am
by Bill Spight
Li Kao wrote:I think this learning technique only works for moves that are obvious at a glance for stronger players. Are these moves obvious to you Bill?
In a real game only one of the three plays that Jowa made would be obvious to me. One I would not have made, and one I might have made. However, all three of the other plays I would have avoided. I chose them because they would have prevented Black's continuation in the actual game.
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:57 am
by Bill Spight
perceval wrote:what do you call perceptual learning ?
Back when I took learning theory, it was thought that intuition developed naturally alongside regular learning, coupled with experience. I skimmed the NYT article, and it seems that it may be taught more directly. I thought that perceptual learning probably would apply to go, and the binary choice idea was mine. As I said, I am not sure that I am doing it right.
[go]$$Wm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . . . X . . X . . . O X . . . | $$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X 7 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . X . O . . O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . O . . O X O . . X . O X X O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:18 am
by quantumf
Magicwand wrote:
Li Kao wrote:I think this learning technique only works for moves that are obvious at a glance for stronger players. Are these moves obvious to you Bill?
those are the first instinct moves and readings of strong players.
One should always try to avoid passively answering the way your opponent hopes, but look for an active way to counter his plans. These moves may not be your instinctive choice, but that attitude should be.
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:33 am
by Chew Terr
Hmmm, seems a little like one can get similar practice from just going through an opening book ("Get Strong at the Opening" is in my car, for similar purposes) by only spending a short amount of time on each problem. Interesting that that seems to be exactly the method recommended by the article. I got 3/4 here, but only would've gotten 1/4, if it wasn't multiple choice. My problem was that I seem to instinctively want to attach on top in the first and fourth problems. Guess that's something to be a bit careful with. Makes sense in the first, because it's too loose, but in the final one, I think it's more because of the nearby black stones.
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:04 pm
by onou1
2/4... I'm every bit as good as a random monkey!
Re: Perceptual learning - response to invasion
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:11 pm
by topazg
3/4 as both multiple choice and as first instincts. It's interesting, I really would never have gotten #2, somehow allowing that one point jump that pokes at the upsetting place in the corner just seemed to hard to take advantage of, but looking at the continuation in your hide tag it suddenly makes perfect sense.
Really interesting exercise, more of these would be really nice!
)
invades, White plays kikashi on the right side.
(less than a random monkey 
) ... and i am not even surprised.