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Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:02 pm
by Sevis
Well, to start things off, I'm a horrible planner. Particularly of things relevant to reality: writing a spec is okay (although, really, I usually wish I didn't know that it helps, and didn't force myself to do it), but forcing myself to do something regularly during the summer holidays?

Oh well, I guess there's no avoiding it.

Due to my level of free time is extremely uneven per day, I'm going to organise this per week. And so, per week, for the next... eight weeks, I intend to do the following:
  • Two pages of Cho's tsumego collection (intermediate -- will move to a higher level it proves too easy).
  • Two of these tsumego I will analyse in-depth here.
  • Three serious games on 19x19, each reviewed individually.
  • Two games on a board size other than 19x19
  • One game every two weeks posted here. I must have lost that game, or won by a very small margin.
I'm afraid I've started too late this week to get most done; I can analyse two tsumegos, though:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 1
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X X . O X .
$$ | . O O O . X .
$$ | O O X X X . .
$$ | X X . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Most of the tsumegos in `intermediate' have so far been reasonably simple, but this is one of the ones where I ran into a ko, and couldn't seem to work around it. Possibilities:



Either I'm missing something, or a ko like this is considered a valid solution.

Also, the SGF viewer here seems to not like the triangles... Might fix that later, hope it doesn't bother anyone at the moment.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 2
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X . X X O .
$$ | . X . X X O .
$$ | . . . O O O .
$$ | . . O , . . .
$$ | . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Including this one because I liked the trickyness and sacrifice.


Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:19 pm
by robinz
The second problem is indeed very nice - and I'm ashamed to say that I didn't get it before losing the willpower to avoid looking at your thoughts. (I did get the failure you showed, and saw that it failed, very quickly though.)

On the first problem though (hidden in case you want to think some more about it):
White to play can certainly make a ko by throwing in at A19. But black playing at the same point kills without ko (barring strange situations elsewhere on the board, although in japanese rules I believe even this wouldn't help white), as it's a bent four in the corner. Unless I'm missing something, which wouldn't be the first time...

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm
by SoDesuNe
Sevis wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 1
$$ ---------------
$$ | . X X . O X .
$$ | . O O O . X .
$$ | O O X X X . .
$$ | X X . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Most of the tsumegos in `intermediate' have so far been reasonably simple, but this is one of the ones where I ran into a ko, and couldn't seem to work around it. Possibilities:



Either I'm missing something, or a ko like this is considered a valid solution.

Also, the SGF viewer here seems to not like the triangles... Might fix that later, hope it doesn't bother anyone at the moment.
A19 kills because of bent-four-in-the-corner (dead, no Ko in the japanese rulset). See: http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4088

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:57 am
by Sevis
Ack. I read the two posts, procrastinated with replying, and then forgot all about this thread for several days. Sorry. :(

I haven't heard of a bent four in the corner being dead -- it's certainly nice to know, seeing as I'm sure I've had let it live in past games. Also interesting is that I have to make sure not to create the actual bent four shape. Well, hopefully tsumego will make some more sense now; thank you for the input. :)


In other news -- I won a simultaneous game against a 1 dan with five stones handicap yesterday. :D Unfortunately, it was at a club, and so I don't have a replay. A noteworthy position I remember is (note that the shape of M15 was muchbetter):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . . X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
I'm sure I got several stones wrong, but the point is the connection between M18 and Q18. I had read out that O18 doesn't work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 7 5 6 9 . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 1 4 O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . 3 X 8 . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . 5 . 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 2 1 4 O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . 3 X 7 8 O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . 9 5 . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 O 2 1 3 O . O . |
$$ . . . X 7 6 4 X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . 1 O O 2 . . . . . |
$$ . . 3 . X O X O O O . O . |
$$ . . . X O X X X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
Instead, my opponent played a puzzling move that worked:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . O . O . |
$$ . . . X . . . X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
After that, cutting proved to be impossible, but it was still a very fun game. I attempted this, but it failed:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . W . . 4 6 W . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 7 O 3 5 . O . O . |
$$ . . . X 2 1 8 X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . 3 W 2 4 O O W . . . . |
$$ . 5 . 1 X O X X . O . O . |
$$ . . . X O . O X . . O O . |
$$ . X . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . O . . X X O . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . . . O X . . |[/go]

I still haven't done the two pages of tsumego I promised -- will be doing those today and tomorrow, as quickly as I can get them right. I also intend to play through the games in the latest NGoB magazine, and a few more in 9-Dan Showdown (I got the book for my birthday, and have been paying it less attention than it deserves). Finally, I should also play on KGS, but I'm not sure if I'll have the time today.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:54 am
by SoDesuNe
Yes, this is the monkey-jump-connection (a large knight's move [ogeima] from the second to the first line). If you do a bunch of Tsumegos, you will definitely come across this move. (As far as I know, it is introduced in the Graded Go Problems for Beginners series.)

Generally, you have to be aware of this shape on the second line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . a . b . . . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . . W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Now if it's White's turn, he can connect by playing either 'a' or 'b'.


See: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump and http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJumpConnection

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:00 pm
by Sevis
Thanks -- interesting, I hadn't expected that.



I've tried doing some more tsumego, and I am severely disappointed by myself. I've taken another look at the Cho's first book, and while I can solve most very quickly, there are a few amongst them that I simply can't get, even if I'm using an SGF editor. For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . X O X . .
$$ | . . O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]
My instinct was:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 4 X O X . .
$$ | 5 1 O O X . .
$$ | . 2 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]
Which is, if I'm not mistaken, a seki.

The key point is, if I'm not mistaken, is where white responds in this case:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . X O X . .
$$ | 2 . O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 1 X . . . . .[/go]
Now, if black plays on it, white may respond like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 6 5 X O X . .
$$ | 1 2 O O X . .
$$ | . 4 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm6 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 1 2 . O X . .
$$ | X O O O X . .
$$ | . O O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | X X . . . . .[/go]
And this is a bent four. However, white can play this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 X O X . .
$$ | 1 5 O O X . .
$$ | . 4 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 3 X . . . . .[/go]
And this results with the same seki-in-gote. I have the feeling it must also be dead (or some other variation... I can't find any bent fours white can't avoid, though). Hm.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:13 pm
by Toge
If it seems like opponent's response is powerful, it may give you a clue.
"Opponent's vital point is my vital point"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------
$$ | . 2 X O X . .
$$ | 1 4 O O X . .
$$ | . 3 O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | 5 X . . . . .[/go]
Here I think the problem was that you hadn't internatized the snapback tesuji and instead played on the outside earlier.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:34 pm
by Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 4 1 X O X . .
$$ | 3 2 O O X . .
$$ | . . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm4 3
$$ ---------------
$$ | 1 2 . O X . .
$$ | X O O O X . .
$$ | 3 . O X . X .
$$ | O O X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .[/go]
Wrong. But :b5: seems like the only move... Thanks for the hint, Toge, I'll take a look at it tomorrow if I don't get it. I hadn't really been considering this move, as that point doesn't seem likely to be the key point... Hm. (I can see that it may very well be, though, as that's where white's stone ends up...

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:55 pm
by Sevis
And, looks like I misunderstood the advice. Oh well, I've been running it through my head since I read the answer, and I think I might be able to solve similar ones myself soon... Eventually...

I've played a game yesterday that I lost rather badly. It was 2 handicap, but I doubt I would have been able to win even if it had been an even game. Will post it in the Game Analysis section, with questions.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:35 pm
by Simba
If it's any concellation, I'm working through that same Cho Chikun book and got that one wrong too ^_^;;; (I'm around 5k).

As for the connection:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . . W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Move 'c' also works. This is the 'small monkey jump'. The monkey jump is usually an endgame move. In my book of endgame problems, the author says sometimes the large monkey jump is best, but sometimes the small monkey jump is better for endgame. I'm not entirely sure why, but I suspect one of the reasons might be a sente/gote issue. Sente in the endgame (well, in general) is pretty huge.

Good luck on your way up :) !

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:17 pm
by Sevis
Oh, wow. I hadn't considered the small monkey jump at all, although I can't read out any sequence to cut it. Hm, second to first line jumps are proving to be more and more useful as I keep learning...

Thanks for the help everyone. ^^

This week's two tsumego:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . . . . X .
$$ | O O . . . X .
$$ | . O . O O X .
$$ | . O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
Please note that there is a mistake in this SGF. In fact, it doesn't show the solution at all, but I'm currently too tired to fix it. Will be updated eventually. ^^
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 5
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . X X X . . . ,
$$ | . X . X O . X . . .
$$ | O O O O . O X . X .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
In this one, I give a fairly detailed description of how I try to approach tsumego, but I don't find the answer.

PS. I would appreciate if someone posted a diagram of a final result of a 9x9 game between two SDK players. I think I want to try `reversing' the game, but for that, I need to not have seen any of it (except the final state). A hidden SGF would be appreciated, too.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:21 pm
by jts
"c" runs into this problem, though
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 3 . 4 . . |
$$ . . . X . W . . 2 W . O . |
$$ . . . X . O . X . . O O . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . X X X . |
$$ . . . X O O O X . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:52 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4
$$ ---------------
$$ | . . a 5 3 X .
$$ | O O 4 1 2 X .
$$ | . O . O O X .
$$ | b O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
In one of your variations, are you sure "a" and "b" are miai to kill?

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:36 am
by Sevis
Oh, wow. I blame it on making the SGFs at 4 o'clock or so. :P Thanks for pointing it out, will fix somewhere in the near future.

Hm, and this means I haven't solved it yet. Hmm.



I need to do more tsumego.

Re: Eek, planning...

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:26 am
by Sevis
Aha!

Solution to 4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 4 :b9: at :b5:
$$ ---------------
$$ | 8 3 5 6 . X .
$$ | O O 1 4 . X .
$$ | . O 2 O O X .
$$ | 7 O . X . X .
$$ | . X X . X . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]