Valid moves you don't play.

Post by **Solomon** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:48 pm

For a game of endless possibilities, it's funny how restricted my play is and how I just can't get myself to play certain moves that I know are valid for my own little reasons.

Examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . . . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The shimari. There are several reasons I don't like the shimari:

Inefficient to play, especially since it's played as early as move 3 or 5. The two stones are just too close in the opening for my liking.
An unnatural way of making territory. To me, a natural way of making territory is by attacking and gaining profit as you're pressuring your opponent's groups.
It removes joseki possibilities. I like my hame-I mean, joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ . a . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . b . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I dislike both playing and having to respond to the low approach, both for pretty much the same reason: I know very little joseki variations off of this approach, especially outside of the two-space pincer and the kosumi response. Hence when my opponent approaches low, I almost always decide only upon 'a' or 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I don't mind influential moves like the 5-4 or even the 5-5, but there is something about the 3-5/5-3 that strikes me as silly. As a result, I don't have much experience with joseki variations like the taisha.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . O 1 X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . O X X . . . | $$ . . 1 . O . X . . | $$ . . . a . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I don't care if you can extend one space more with this, letting my opponent have the opportunity to peep at 'a' irks me so I do the simple connect instead. I don't mind most peeps, but there is something about this peep.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . 1 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

When I approach my opponent's corner stone, I feel like I am greeting them and giving them a handshake. The ensuing joseki is us talking and interacting. But with this move I feel like I'm trying to greet someone 20 feet away. Weird example, but that's the best way I can express how I feel with this move.

What are some of yours?

xDragon · Post by **xDragon** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:37 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ -------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ , . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

i know its basic joseki but i basically refuse to play it now. i usually allow it if my opponent does it but ill never play it

i also refuse to play josekis that involve a lot of jumping into the center because i hate the games that result from them, and it looks ugly

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:42 am

After any variations of this joseki, both black and white can resign as far as I care, as I think both are about 20 points behind ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . 7 5 . . | $$ . . . . 6 3 2 . . | $$ . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

schultz · Post by **schultz** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:26 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I don't think I've ever played this in a game. For some reason I ALWAYS play the star point when I'm playing black. And usually when I'm playing white as well, no matter what my opponent plays, now that I think about it.

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:45 am

Araban wrote:For a game of endless possibilities, it's funny how restricted my play is and how I just can't get myself to play certain moves that I know are valid for my own little reasons.

$$Wc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . O 1 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . . . | $$ . . . . O 1 X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

It's not new, but I think that complicated josekis often start with some kind of unreasonableness or indecision on the part of one side or another. In the above, white is deliberately creating a bad shape. "Unh! Take that." Of course, sometimes it's the correct direction of play and all that...

My favorite exmaple is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . a . . . . | $$ . . X . . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . W . X . . | $$ . . . b . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

To me, this is like white is saying "I want the outside... uh no, wait I want territory... aw, heck, let's just fight because I want everything." My view is that if you aren't willing to play a or b instead of :b1:

, then you had no business playing :wc:

to begin with.

Others on my list for other reasons:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . B . . . . | $$ . . . . . , W . . | $$ . . . . . a . . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

With komi near 8 points, it's supposedly possible for white to just play like :w1:

or 'a' in some openings but it just seems pretty wussified to me. That :bc:

stone is just asking to be pincered and there are at least 6 to choose from plus tenuki. One of those moves has to work!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, I have to admit I'm not a sanrensei man. I guess I'm afraid of what it would say about me if I played it. It seems to shout: "I've never read a go book" or "I think I am Takemiya" or "I haven't been paying attention to anything for the past few decades. Haven't you seen my haircut?"

Other than these, there are very few things I avoid for irrational reasons. My opponents are restricting my choices more than I am.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:54 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . W . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I haven't played this approach in a long time, probably since about 7 or 8k. I should probably consider it more often.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . X . X . . | $$ . X . . X O X . . | $$ . . . . O X O . . | $$ . . . . O X . O . | $$ . . . . O O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I can't remember how it occurs, but there's a joseki that ends something like this which I feel looks so terrible for both sides.

Post by **Solomon** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:10 am

Dusk Eagle wrote:
$$Bc
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . X . X . . |
$$ . X . . X O X . . |
$$ . . . . O X O . . |
$$ . . . . O X . O . |
$$ . . . . O O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . X . X . . | $$ . X . . X O X . . | $$ . . . . O X O . . | $$ . . . . O X . O . | $$ . . . . O O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I can't remember how it occurs, but there's a joseki that ends something like this which I feel looks so terrible for both sides.

For those interested in trying to reverse-engineer that, I left my post in hide tags:

Hazushi · Post by **Hazushi** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:07 pm

I never cared much for the 3-3 invasion mostly because it fells like a cheap way to get territory, So I rarely play it.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:40 pm

There are a few patterns that I don't really like - but I still play them. I wonder what that says about my go... :-p

Anyway...
1.) I don't like this one for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 6 . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ . . . . . , 5 . . | $$ . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . b . . . . | $$ . . . . a . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Above, I'm always thinking something along the lines of, "Should I play 'a'? Should I play 'b'? Wha??".

2.) I don't like this one for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 4 . O . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . 3 . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

However, it was mentioned in another thread that maybe I don't need to play :b3:

immediately. I have yet to try this, though.

3.) I don't like this for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . 3 . . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

4.) I don't like this for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ . . . 4 . O . 5 . | $$ . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 2 . 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I just feel that :w2:

is awkward.

---

Like I said, though, though I dislike these for a particular side, I still play them for either side, sometimes.

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Hazushi wrote:I never cared much for the 3-3 invasion mostly because it fells like a cheap way to get territory, So I rarely play it.

What do you mean by cheap? You feel it gives you an unfair advantage sometimes? Why wouldn't you play it then? :scratch:

Kirby wrote:4.) I don't like this for white:

$$Bcm1
$$ ------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ . . b 4 . O . 5 . |
$$ . . . a . , . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . 7 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ . . b 4 . O . 5 . | $$ . . . a . , . . . | $$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 2 . 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I just feel that is awkward.

This isn't an established joseki anyway

. White almost always plays :w4:

at 'a' or 'b', and the slide at :b5:

is very rare after either move. Did you mean for this to be a line higher?

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:56 pm

This thread is very interesting and also extremely silly at the same time.
Not sure why...

Let it be a lesson for you all to overcome your burden of constrained thinking.

My best wishes.

palapiku · Post by **palapiku** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:04 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c I'll take the whole board, please $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

While there's no evidence either way, privately I'm more or less convinced that tengen is the correct first move. It's the ultimate fighting move, and modern go seems to reveal itself as more and more about fighting and less and less about territory. Still, I don't play it, because it seems to turn go into a whole different game and I don't think I can adjust.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:37 pm

I have a strong dislike of the Chinese fuseki. I know pros play it all the time, it's good, etc. etc. But I just don't like it. Maybe because it's so popular, I don't want something too common...

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:21 am

Dusk Eagle wrote:...
This isn't an established joseki anyway . White almost always plays at 'a' or 'b', and the slide at is very rare after either move. Did you mean for this to be a line higher?

Ooops. I think that I meant this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ . . . 4 . O . 5 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 3 . 1 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . 2 . 7 . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

That said, I wonder if I've ever made the mistake in a game of playing :w4:

in my original sequence following the 3-4.

Prodigious · Post by **Prodigious** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:52 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

The large knight's corner enclosure. The aji in the corner just makes me feel bad, man. Same thing about the 2-space high enclosure, but I guess it could be debated whether it's a "valid" move anyway.

Life In 19x19

Valid moves you don't play.

Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.

Re: Valid moves you don't play.