Page 1 of 2
How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:25 pm
by Zarxrax
I'm trying to learn to play go.
I have gone through a couple of games on kgs, but I am mostly trying to practice some 9x9 games on the "igowin" software until I get a little better understanding of the game.
I've been reading about some of the basic moves and strategies and stuff, life and death and such, and have been working lots and lots of basic go problems.
But here's the thing. All of the problems that I see have these situations where there are already a lot of stones set up. In such situations, I suppose both white and black are pretty evenly matched.
However, in my actual games, I'm having trouble even getting to a point where I can utilize any of the strategies that I see in problems. My opponent usually gets his stones in a good formation before I even realize it, and then it seems like there is little that I can do.
When my opponent plays just ONE stone... how do I respond to this? Because on his next turn, he will probably be playing something to strengthen that. And at that point, I'm already falling behind. I guess what I'm saying, is how do I keep my opponent from building up good shapes, starting from when he only has one or two pieces in an area?
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:30 pm
by jts
Play a game as thoughtfully as you can, and then post the result in the "Game Analysis" section for comments.
And keep playing humans! Some people find that it's more fun that way
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:31 pm
by topazg
If a lot of what you are reading is based on stones hitting each other, and fights generally, and you can't see how that applies to the board in front of view ... assume it doesn't apply, and try to think of moves that make you points. At the end of the game, the one with the most territory wins, so always have that as the bottom line behind the purpose of every move you make
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:39 pm
by judicata
I second what jts said. Also, watch a few games from stronger players. It is hard to give you an answer in the abstract, but keep in mind that you cannot kill everything (unless your opponent is much weaker than you) and, in a typical even game, most groups will not die. I think it is fair to say go isn't a game of complete domination, but of balance. This doesn't mean you don't want to control the board and defeat your opponent--just don't expect to destroy everything they create. In a 9x9 game at your level, focus on keeping your groups safe (by making eye space, staying connected, etc.).
Keep asking questions, and best of luck!
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:01 pm
by hyperpape
A lot of the game of Go is about balance. Each side gets some of what it wants, and you'll get into trouble if you try and make sure your opponent never makes a strong shape. At some point, a fight arises, because one side wants more than the other can let him have.
There are games that start with violent fighting, but they are not the rule. It may be that you are trying too hard to keep your opponent from getting anything.
Here are some examples of these ideas:
$$c Some ordinary opening moves.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Some ordinary opening moves.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a common opening. Each side stakes a claim to one corner. Then White splits the right side because Black would be very happy to play there and lay a claim to the entire right side. Now a fight may start after Black approaches
, but it may be settled peacefully.
$$c A joseki.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A joseki.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . 2 . . 6 |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a joseki--a common pattern that may be useful for both players. Each side comes away with a stable group that is not yet easy to attack. Each side has the potential for some territory (Black has somewhat more potential--he played here first).
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:18 pm
by EdLee
Zarxrax, welcome to Go and L19!
Zarxrax wrote:When my opponent plays just ONE stone... how do I respond to this?
There is no general answer to this. There are literally infinite possibilities (for all practical purposes).
This is one reason Go is so amazing and difficult. For now, try to finish 100 games as quickly
as you can -- 9x9, 13x13, 19x19 are all OK, but the smaller boards will save you some time.
After that, once in a while post a serious game here for review. Good luck and enjoy!
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:35 pm
by HermanHiddema
1. On boards larger than 9x9, playing in an empty corner is never wrong. 4-4 or 3-4 are fine points to play. Playing on an empty side, on the third or fourth line, some distance away from stones, is also usually fine.
2. In the corner, or near the side, it is generally fine to approach at a knight's move distance away from a stone on the 4th line:
$$
approaches
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ approaches
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . O .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . .
$$ | . . . . .
$$ | . . . . .[/go]
3. If your opponent attaches to your stone, and has no help near, attack:
$$B
attaches,
attacks
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . .
$$ . . O . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B attaches, attacks
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 2 . .
$$ . . O . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]
4. If your opponent attaches to your stone, and has help near, pullback/defend:
$$B
attaches,
pulls back
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 X . .
$$ . 2 O . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B attaches, pulls back
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . 1 X . .
$$ . 2 O . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]
5. Play the vital point of the diagonal when available
$$B Black attached, you defend,
is the vital point of black's diagonal.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . X . .
$$ . . 1 . . .
$$ . . O 2 . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black attached, you defend, is the vital point of black's diagonal.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . X . .
$$ . . 1 . . .
$$ . . O 2 . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]
6. Cross-cut? Extend!
$$B
crosscut,
extends, could also be any of the circled points. Try to set up a ladder.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . C . .
$$ . . 1 2 C .
$$ . C O 3 . .
$$ . . 4 . . .
$$ . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B crosscut, extends, could also be any of the circled points. Try to set up a ladder.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . C . .
$$ . . 1 2 C .
$$ . C O 3 . .
$$ . . 4 . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]
7. Don't play atari too much.
$$B
defends solidly. The circled ataris are tempting, but probably wrong.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . C 3 . .
$$ . C 1 2 . .
$$ . . O 4 . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B defends solidly. The circled ataris are tempting, but probably wrong.
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . C 3 . .
$$ . C 1 2 . .
$$ . . O 4 . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]
8. Don't know what to do? Play elsewhere! Probably your opponent, if he is of your level, doesn't know what to do either, and even if he does, you're getting something elsewhere.
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:51 pm
by emeraldemon
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:38 pm
by Zarxrax
Thanks for the ideas everyone. I've mostly been playing right beside or diagonally from the opponents piece whenever they move to a place that I don't like. But I guess that's a losing battle when I try that, right?
That basic instinct page looks especially useful. I'll study everything on there and then try a few more games.
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:42 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Try using the advice you just received, then post a game in the 'game analysis' sub forum.
And welcome to L19.
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:50 am
by Bill Spight
Zarxrax wrote:I've mostly been playing right beside or diagonally from the opponents piece whenever they move to a place that I don't like. But I guess that's a losing battle when I try that, right?
Well, maybe.
What happens when you make such plays is that you get into a
contact fight. The end result of a contact fight is usually that both sides are strengthened. If your aim is to attack, that is not the result you seek. So attacks are usually at a little distance. And as you get better, you will be able to mount attacks on a large scale.
One thing that I think you would find helpful here is the Malkovich games. In them people explain what they are trying to do, and other people make comments. They provide an opportunity to get into the heads of experienced go players.
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:12 pm
by Bill Spight
Here is an interesting game, a masterpiece, in fact.
I have already posted it with TV sportscaster-like comments, but I have added several comments aimed at beginners. The earlier comments are marked with ***, the beginner comments with *. You may find it helpful.
(;CA[ISO8859-1]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]ST[2]FF[4]GM[1]PC[Edo Castle]DT[1820-01-02 (Bunsei 2 XI 17)]EV[Castle game]GC[Genjo's lifetime masterpiece. Another source has date Bunsei 3 XI. We follow O-Shiro Go.]C[***Inoue Ansetsu later took the name, Inoue Gennan Inseki as head of the Inoue house. Though nominally 5 dan at the time of this game, he was recognized as having 7 dan strength, and everybody expected a short game with a courteous resignation. But Genjo not only raised the level of his game, he made it seem easy.]RE[B+1]PW[Honinbo Genjo]AB[dp][pd]PB[Inoue Ansetsu]FG[259:]WR[8d]GN[ ]US[GoGoD95]PM[0]BR[5d]HA[2]
;C[* White starts in an empty corner. The saying goes, Corners, Sides, Center.]W[cd]
;B[qp]
;C[* Now White approaches the corner, preventing a Black enclosure. This Knight's approach is the most common one to the 3-4 stone.]W[oq]
;B[ec]
;C[* White pincers Black's approach.]W[gc]
;B[mq]
;C[* Now White approaches another corner. Note that, even though there are six spaces between this stone and the White pincer, they work together.]W[nc]
;B[op]C[* Usually you do not attach to a stone you are attacking, but it is a common follow-up to a pincer. Black is happy for both sides to get stronger, here.]
;W[pp]
;B[po]
;W[pq]
;B[np]C[* Black confines White to the corner in exchange for outside strength. This is usually good, especially in the opening.]
;W[qq]
;B[ro]C[* This is a nice play to protect the cutting point at R-05. OC, it threatens the hane at S-03.]
;W[rp]
;B[qo]C[* The White atari strengthens Black, but it allows White to answer S-03 with an atari at S-02, and then descend to T-02 and live.]
;C[*** Note that Genjo does not approach from the wider side. Why make the game easy for Black?]W[fq]
;B[nd]C[* Black builds strength to work with the wall in the bottom right.]
;W[md]
;B[ne]
;C[*** Looking to invade the right side,White does not want to strengthen Black too much.]W[ob]
;B[pb]
;W[pc]
;B[qc]
;W[oc]
;B[qb]
;C[* White builds strength to work with the White pincer stone. Note that a Black play here would also be big.]W[me]
;B[mf]C[* The proverb say to hane at the head of two stones.]
;C[* White plays a wedge between the Black positions, playing closer to the weaker one.]W[qi]
;B[qe]
;C[* Threatening to push through, leaving Black's center stones floating.]W[pf]
;B[od]C[* Protects against White's threat and threatens to cut at N-17.]
;C[* Protects the cut efficiently. See variation for next.]W[kc]
(
;B[qk]C[*** Black chooses to attack the two stones instead of the single stone. After all, this is where Black is strong, and allowing White to make easy life here would kill Black's influence. But there is more to it than that, as we shall see.]
;C[* The saying is, a one space jump is never bad.]W[oi]
;B[kd]C[*** Black attacks this group, as well. Did you see this move? I didn't.]
;W[ld]
;B[jc]
;W[kb]
;B[ke]
;W[lf]
;B[mg]C[*** Ah! A splitting attack.]
;C[*** White is very busy. Black threatens to run with the single stone, as well. Black's play is masterful.]W[fd]
;B[pj]C[*** Make heavy.
* If Black does not play here early, later on White might sacrifice the stone on R-11. Black aims to make it baggage for White.]
;W[pi]
;B[rg]C[*** Take away the base.]
;C[*** Big.
* It is easy to underestimate the value of the turn facing the center, since it is hard to make territory in the center.]W[oj]
;B[hc]C[*** Hmmm. What is Black up to?]
;W[gb]
;B[mj]C[*** Topping the tree.
* This capping play makes it difficult for White to run to relative safety in the center.]
;W[pk]
;B[ql]C[*** Who cares about a single stone?]
;W[nk]
;B[de]C[*** Black does not want this stone to die a dog's death. Black is dictating the pace of play. How deeply has he seen?]
;W[dd]
;B[mb]C[*** Switching the attack back to this group.
* Note that if White played here he would easily have two eyes.]
;W[mc]
;B[ol]C[*** Vital point.
* Plays on the diagonal are good for making or preventing eyes. This play also threatens the cut at P-09, preventing a possible eye if White captures the stone on Q-10.]
;C[* White pushes into the center.]W[mk]
;B[lj]C[* The Black stone is strengthened.]
;W[lk]
;B[kk]C[*** Black keeps up the pressure.]
;W[kl]
;B[jl]C[*** More pressure.
* This play is called a two step hane. Despite the fact that it has two cuts, it can be very strong.]
;W[km]
;B[mm]C[*** The eye stealing tesuji.
* If White played here he would have an eye at M-08.]
;C[*** Not so fast, buster!]W[mn]
;B[nm]
;W[lm]
;B[jk]C[*** Big.]
;C[*** Also big.
* Either player has a knight's move to this point. The saying is, Don't let a double knight's move get away.]W[in]
;B[lb]C[*** Where is White's second eye?
* Just capturing the Black stones will make only one eye.]
;W[jb]
;B[ed]C[*** Can't Black figure out where to play? {hehe}]
;W[ee]
;B[fe]
;W[ef]
;B[gd]
;W[fc]
;B[ib]C[*** All part of the plan.]
;W[jd]
;B[je]C[*** And what a plan!]
;W[id]
;B[hd]C[*** Thank you.]
;W[ie]
;B[if]
;W[he]
;B[ge]C[*** Thanks again.]
;W[hf]
;B[hg]
;W[jf]
;B[gf]C[*** Please.]
;C[*** If you insist.]W[ig]
;B[ic]C[*** I do.]
;C[*** As you wish.]W[if]
;B[eb]C[*** I'll take these ripe bananas, thank you.]
;C[*** I like this one.
* For White to capture this stone would be big.]W[gg]
;B[lc]C[*** Well, I like these.]
;C[*** Not so fast.]W[kf]
;B[hh]C[*** Same to you.
* Saving the stone, at least for now.]
;C[*** Big.
* Letting Black capture the G-13 stone in a ladder would be terrible.]W[fg]
;B[ja]C[*** The time has come, the Walrus said.]
;W[le]
;B[ka]
;C[* White still has made only one eye.]W[kd]
;B[fb]C[*** Thank you very much. People may have asked, where is Black going to make territory from his thickness? Would you have guessed the top left side and corner? And the fight is not yet over.
* Thickness refers to the Black wall in the bottom right corner. It has influenced the whole fighting so far.]
;W[di]
(
;B[ii]C[*** This play has been criticized. See variation.]
;C[*** White skillfully makes another eye.]W[ki]
;B[kj]
;W[ji]
;B[mh]C[*** With sente.]
;W[qg]
;B[og]C[* Again, a play on the diagonal to prevent an eye -- as well as protecting against the cut at O-14.]
;C[* This double approach attacks the Black stone on D-04 while extending the White framework on the left side.]W[dn]
;B[rq]
;W[rr]
;B[sp]
;W[sr]
;B[gp]C[*** Still a good attacking play.]
;W[eo]
;B[hm]C[*** This is good, too.]
;W[rh]
;B[rf]
;W[rj]
;B[cf]
;W[ce]
;B[dq]
;W[co]
;B[fp]
;W[bq]
;B[ok]
;W[nj]
;B[ko]C[*** The eye stealing tesuji again.]
;W[pg]
;B[df]
;W[dg]
;B[oh]
;W[ph]
;B[rk]
;C[*** Small life.]W[si]
;B[bf]C[* Why is Black playing this? It looks difficult to live here.]
;W[cg]
;B[do]
;W[cm]
;B[bc]C[* Ah! He played to sacrifice four stones.]
;W[be]
;B[en]
;W[hp]
;B[hq]
;W[gq]
;B[ho]
;W[ip]
;B[nr]
;W[or]
;B[dm]
;W[cn]
;B[hr]
;W[em]
;B[fn]
;W[cr]
;B[fm]
;W[el]
;B[dr]
;W[iq]
;B[kp]
;W[lr]
;B[kr]
;W[kq]
;B[jr]
;W[gk]
;B[hk]
;C[*** Watch the fireworks here.]W[ir]
;B[ps]
;W[os]
;B[qr]
;W[pr]
;B[eq]
;W[lq]
;B[lp]
;W[gr]
;B[ls]
;W[fs]
;B[er]
;W[hs]
;B[fr]C[*** No, you may not.]
;W[hn]
;B[go]
;W[gl]
;B[io]
;W[jq]
;B[nq]
;C[*** Let's make a deal.]W[js]
;B[ns]C[***OK. End of comments.]
;W[db]
;B[dc]
;W[cc]
;B[cb]
;W[bb]
;B[da]
;W[ac]
;B[ba]
;W[ab]
;B[la]
;W[gj]
;B[fl]
;W[fk]
;B[gi]
;W[ih]
;B[hj]
;W[fi]
;B[kh]
;W[kg]
;B[jm]
;W[qj]
;B[ln]
;W[kn]
;B[jn]
;W[lo]
;B[mo]
;W[sk]
;B[ln]
;W[pl]
;B[pm]
;W[pj]
;B[rm]
;W[lo]
;B[ek]
;W[dl]
;B[ln]
;W[ha]
;B[ia]
;W[lo]
;B[br]
;W[bs]
;B[ln]
;W[ll]
;B[of]
;W[lo]
;B[jj]
;W[lh]
;B[li]
;W[jh]
;B[ln]
;W[gh]
;B[hi]
;W[lo]
;B[ms]
;W[ks]
;B[ln]
;W[pa]
;B[qa]
;W[lo]
;B[eh]
;W[eg]
;B[ln]
;W[nl]
;B[om]
;W[lo]
;B[cq]
;W[ar]
;B[ln]
;W[sl]
;B[nn]
;W[ni]
;B[na]
;W[oa]
;B[nb]
;W[nh]
;B[ng]
;W[sm]
;B[sn]
;W[hl]
;B[il]
;W[gm]
;B[gn]
;W[fj]
;B[cp]
;W[bp]
;B[ds]
;W[cs]
;B[jp]
;W[sg]
;B[pe]
;W[qf]
;B[se]
;W[lg]
)
(
;B[gp]C[*** This play attacks both the single stone and the right side group. Call it a leaning attack or splitting attack.]
)
)
(
;B[mc]C[* If Black cuts, . . . ]
;W[mb]
;B[lc]
;W[ld]
;B[lb]
;W[kb]
;B[la]
;W[ka]
;B[ma]
;C[* White captures in a ladder.]W[na]
)
)
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:13 pm
by Zarxrax
thanks!
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:31 pm
by Koroviev
The sgf in Bill's great post is now broken.
Re: How to respond to the most basic situations?
Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:44 pm
by Bill Spight
Koroviev wrote:The sgf in Bill's great post is now broken.
I changed sgf-full to sgf. OK now.
But shouldn't sgf-full still work?