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Orthodox Fuseki

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4333

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Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:36 am
by emeraldemon
Regarding this fuseki, called the [sl=OrthodoxFuseki]orthodox fuseki[/sl] on Sensei's library.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I was always told that a is correct, but it seems more pros are choosing to play b now. See e.g. the GoGameGuru Commentary here:

http://gogameguru.com/commentary-hane-naoki-yamashita-keigo-66th-honinbo/

In particular, it seems Yamashita played this way in game 3 as well. Is this just a new fad, or has some pro analysis found the older way to be wrong?

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:52 am
by hyperpape
I've seen various commentaries that say it's the new way, but no one claiming that the old has been refuted. I suspect it's a case of trying a new thing out to see if it works, but I don't know for sure.

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:39 pm
by logan
Yes, A is generally considered better these days. But the history and reasons for this are deep.

To summarize, Black found this position to be very comfortable:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Up to 5, Black has a good moyo and will press down on White's right group to enlarge it or attack a deep White stone. 6 & 7 are a standard followup. If Black 3 @ A, then White 6 @ B.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the other usual way to play. Black can also choose A.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Partly because of this, W1 became more popular since 2007. So it's not really 'new'.

Because of W1, Black had a chance to update his two-space pincer josekies of A and B. This is largely why many new 4-4 josekies have appeared in recent years. The aim of this distance is to extend from the bottom enclosure and still pressure White. Black C is also popular.

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:31 am
by gaius
logan wrote:Yes, A is generally considered better these days.
I do not believe this. Perhaps it's becoming more popular these days, but both moves are still playable even for top professionals.
logan wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(...) 6 & 7 are a standard followup.
I refuse to believe that :b7: is playable until you show me a pro game with that move in this position. It looks like a really bad shape and it does not work together with :b3: very well. Where did you find this move?

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:39 am
by gogameguru
gaius wrote:I refuse to believe that :b7: is playable until you show me a pro game with that move in this position. It looks like a really bad shape and it does not work together with :b3: very well. Where did you find this move?


It's been played in quite a few pro games. Here's Cho Hyeyeon's comments about this opening: http://loveku.livejournal.com/44746.html

Cool shortcodes for the stones by the way. I'd never noticed you could do that :) :b1: :w2: :b3: - now that I look, they were sitting right there the whole time :lol:

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:18 am
by topazg
gaius wrote:I refuse to believe that :b7: is playable until you show me a pro game with that move in this position. It looks like a really bad shape and it does not work together with :b3: very well. Where did you find this move?


Really? I've seen it and used it quite a bit :-? The idea is kikashi before the 3-3 invasion surely?

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:19 am
by gaius
OK, I take back my words :oops:

The move still looks really odd to me though... Apparently my intuition needs work :scratch:

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:46 am
by topazg
gaius wrote:... Apparently my intuition needs work :scratch:


You and me both :lol:
If it didn't, we'd be professional

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:22 am
by emeraldemon
I don't think the wedge has died completely. Here's Park Yeonghun winning with it in 2010:



It's worth noting that black doesn't choose the response outlined above in this game, approahing instead from the enclosure side. Actually black gets some very scary thickness early this game, but white does an amazing job reducing it.

Here's another from the 2009 Kisei league:


In that one it's a bit different, because white went for the 3-4 points. I'm not sure how that changes the analysis.

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:44 am
by hyperpape
emeraldemon wrote:In that one it's a bit different, because white went for the 3-4 points. I'm not sure how that changes the analysis.
Bill strongly suggested that in the presence of the 3-4 points, you should not approach the wedge immediately, but play on white's side of the board.

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:58 am
by Tryphon
topazg wrote:
gaius wrote:... Apparently my intuition needs work :scratch:


You and me both :lol:
If it didn't, we'd be professional


I remember having seen a game by Lee Chang Ho where he shows a refutation of this :b7: (game 1 from "Invasion et Réduction, tome 1", sorry, I have not the english title). The game was against his master, whose name I can't spell correctly, sorry.

He concludes by saying "this move ( :b7: ) shouldn't be seen so much in the future pro games".

Re: Orthodox Fuseki

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:01 am
by Tryphon
Here's the first moves of the game (comments are from the book, in French, I may translate later if wanted) :

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