Life In 19x19

I haven't been able to keep up with tsumego practice lately, and decided I wanted to play an intense fighting game involving lots of reading. Luckily, there's such a thing as Tygem, so it wasn't hard to get what I was looking for. I'm still ranked 14k on Tygem, probably because of the large amount of sandbaggers there, but it seems my opponent wasn't really one of those. I have three small questions, concerning:
- a way to punish a joseki deviation with black 9
- the proper move with regards to the whole board position at black 35
- the best way to answer a white extension towards my thickness at black 37



Thanks in advance for taking the time to look at my questions.

I tried to answer your three questions, and also addressed the bottom-left corner, where I feel mistakes were made by both players. Hope this helps

9 is a fine move. Indeed, it is the only move.
EDIT: R16 is playable, but it seems aji keshi. It forgoes any chance of S18 in the future.

35: Also a fine move.

37: This one I'm less certain about. After some contemplation, I think that your move is second best.
The top side is not as big as it looks at first glance. You are playing a stone in the secondary direction of white's shimari ( He really wants to extend southward ). And your Q17-Q12 wall has two defects: he can peep at P16 and P13. In short, extending along the top is not best for him, and fighting along the top is not ideal for you.

F3 - aka 'a' - looks biggest to me. Sure, as DE says, it is slow, but there is nothing urgent on this board. Slow is tolerable here, IMHO.

( Disclaimer: this third opinion is not guaranteed to be correct. )

Thank you for the variations in the upper left, seems I missed some interesting moves there. However, I have a question about your proposed way of playing at . I contemplated the double hane in the game, but was a bit concerned over white abandoning its small corner and choosing the outside instead. In that case, the sacrifice makes a difference. In the case of the double hane, black's previous moves almost compell him to catch at A, so white gets sente to play a move like b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

with the sacrifice however, white can also choose the outside and achieve a similar position, but now white's stones don't form a ponnuki, and if white wants one, he has to create an ineffecient one (without actually catching a stone), and it will be black's turn to play. If you're going for the outside, doesn't it seem better to sacrifice that one stone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

: I know that, generally, connecting one side solidly is better, as it allows those 2 peeps. However, if white cuts immediately, the ladder is good for white, and I didn't feel like handling two separated groups. How would you handle a cut at ?

Concerning , you both make a good point, I'll have to contemplate that one some more.

Thank you for taking a look at my questions.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The first diagram is obviously better for white than the second. However, both are terrible for white either way, so it's a bit of a moot point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Since white is basically forced into this variation, it's better to choose the top diagram, since that one is slightly better for black than the bottom diagram. The difference is pretty minor though; the main reason I pointed it out is because it's a somewhat common mistake and sometimes it really makes a difference for the life of the white group.

: Have you ever had one of those problems that just sticks in your head? I'm having one of those trying to decide which way to connect is better. Still, I don't think the tiger's mouth is proper here. If you play the third-line connection and white cuts, I think you'd be fine just playing like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, I'm starting to think that the other connection might be better, so we can summarize that I really don't know what's best here . If you don't throw in, white gets to choose before connecting which side to place a cutting stone for later aji, so there's that in your favor too.

Side note: Sometimes, it is definitely better to throw in before a double-hane. Here's an example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This fails.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 1 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This succeeds.

Thanks for clarifying the differences between the variations with and without throw-in.

Concerning : this does seem like a good way to handle a white cut. Seems like white is putting himself in too much trouble by playing that way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

At 37, my feeling is that black has a won game already, and putting a stone anywhere would be pretty much ok. The game move is fine, but honestly I think if you put a stone at f3 or o3 or o4 or whatever it'd turn out about the same. Black's influence dominates the board, and white has very few solid points.

Here is just a little thought about Black 143, not that it matters at that point since you have already won.
But I often look at moves I play after I'm sure that I have won and these moves could have been a lot better. And these are the moves I learn the most from actually, I hope it helps you.

Black 143 seems kind of pointless now, sure it is sente but it's not urgent, nor is it big.
You could just play somewhere else and let white worry about it later, because if you leave it alone it will provide a few big ko threats.
And white can't really defend that by connecting because that will be gote.

Of course I'm not saying 143 is bad and in fact maybe it's better to play safely and remove aji with it. At least when you are leading by such a big margin.

It's just how I see that move and if I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me.
I'm about the same strenght as you and I just made it to 13k on tygem, so i could be wrong.

from your commentqt move 37

Hushfield wrote:.H: Never use thickness to surround territory,

i have the same kind of confusion: we should not use wall to surround territory ( (c) J. Banbeck and others), BUT extensions from a wall are good .
Seems paradoxical (at first sight) to me as the extension does sketch a framework

My way of resolving this is to think that (just has you did here) you should play a wide extension, daring W to invade so that you can make profit while attaking, but this profit will NOT be territory directly where your wall is. meaning that you should not consider that you must kill everything that comes between your wall and your extension, and you should not play several move aiming to build a second wall in the middle of the board.
but i think 1 extension is fine to cramp whoever would dare to approach and to prevent them to stop at just the right distance from the wall
i also believe that at our level, sometimes our opponents (or ourselves) would let such a framework untouched for so long that it might become territory, which would not happen in a higher level game.

What are the thoughts of the wall experts around here ? is it a correct way of thinking ?

blade90 wrote:Here is just a little thought about Black 143, not that it matters at that point since you have already won.
But I often look at moves I play after I'm sure that I have won and these moves could have been a lot better. And these are the moves I learn the most from actually, I hope it helps you.

Black 143 seems kind of pointless now, sure it is sente but it's not urgent, nor is it big.
You could just play somewhere else and let white worry about it later, because if you leave it alone it will provide a few big ko threats.
And white can't really defend that by connecting because that will be gote.

Of course I'm not saying 143 is bad and in fact maybe it's better to play safely and remove aji with it. At least when you are leading by such a big margin.

It's just how I see that move and if I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me.
I'm about the same strenght as you and I just made it to 13k on tygem, so i could be wrong.

actually at 143 doesnt (1) @H1- @G1 - @M1 @H1 @E2 kills ?

M1 is self atari

Tryss wrote:M1 is self atari

arf i get back to 143 from the end of the game and didnt notice it was a capture

blade90 wrote:I often look at moves I play after I'm sure that I have won and these moves could have been a lot better. And these are the moves I learn the most from actually, I hope it helps you.

Black 143 seems kind of pointless now, sure it is sente but it's not urgent, nor is it big.
You could just play somewhere else and let white worry about it later, because if you leave it alone it will provide a few big ko threats.
And white can't really defend that by connecting because that will be gote.

Of course I'm not saying 143 is bad and in fact maybe it's better to play safely and remove aji with it. At least when you are leading by such a big margin.

You're absolutely right. The move I played was a scared one, and even if it's sente, that's still a bad reason to play a move. I recently lost a few games during the endgame because of aji coming back to haunt me, so I decided to just remove the aji in sente and be done with it. Though you're right in remarking that this sort of relaxing is a bad habit, and we should always look for the strongest move.

The difference between using a wall to make solid territory and extending from a wall is that you don't expect the entire extension to become territory. If you could expect that, it'd be wonderful, since that's a ton of points, but you expect your opponent to invade that extension so that you can attack him using the wall. This way you can seal him in or make him run and make territory everywhere else (possibly using walls). If you want to make solid territory with a wall, you tend to end up overconcentrated.

perceval wrote:from your commentqt move 37

Hushfield wrote:.H: Never use thickness to surround territory,

i have the same kind of confusion: we should not use wall to surround territory ( (c) J. Banbeck and others), BUT extensions from a wall are good .
Seems paradoxical (at first sight) to me as the extension does sketch a framework

A couple of things: First, a framework is not territory. Second, not using thickness to surround territory is not one of those never proverbs. For instance, in the late middle game, surrounding territory with a wall may be quite appropriate.

Second, extensions from walls are not necessarily good. In general, there are two types of walls, those that need extensions and those that do not. Those that do not have eye potential. Black's wall in the top right corner does not need an extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B "Enclose" lower right
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . O . . a . . , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My inclination would be to extend from the bottom right towards the right side. If I were to play on the top side, I like "a".