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Interesting problem

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4448

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Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:24 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White to escape with his three stones.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:35 am
by Marcus
N15 stands out as a good initial move to me ... reading ...

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:11 pm
by HermanHiddema
Only the empty triangle at M13 works. L12 is interesting, but fails. The other variations quickly end in a ladder:

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1079[/sgf-full]


diagram.sgf
analysis
(1.55 KiB) Downloaded 805 times

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:45 pm
by Kirby
Maybe I should change goals in go, and make it my goal to be as good as Herman... :-p

I struggled with this problem and did not find the solution.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:05 pm
by tchan001
Look at Herman's avatar and you'll know what is the most important goal of go in Herman's mind.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:18 pm
by tchan001
Quickly! We must show Herman the Igo Hatsuyoron problem 120 and see what his analytical mind produces.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:00 pm
by Shaddy
Hmm. That was pretty quick. Let's see who can solve this one...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . X . X X X . O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X X X X X O X . O . |
$$ | . . . . O O O O . X O O O X O X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O . . . O O X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black to live. I showed this problem at Congress a few times, Tabemasu was the only one who got it.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:52 am
by HermanHiddema
Nice one :)

There is death in the hane, of course. But the real tesuji here is the later L1:

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1083[/sgf-full]

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:41 am
by Shaddy
Wow, I'm impressed. Here's one from the Igo Hatsuyoron..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O B B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . . . . . X O B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:27 am
by Tryss
Nice ladder :mrgreen:

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:03 am
by HermanHiddema
Oooh, I like that one.

This one's straight up my alley. Lots of variations to read out, most of them only just failing after 15 moves :lol:

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1087[/sgf-full]

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:23 am
by Shaddy
Not quite! White has a better resistance. This problem ain't from the Igo Hatsuyoron for nothing :rambo:

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:05 pm
by HermanHiddema
Shaddy wrote:Not quite! White has a better resistance. This problem ain't from the Igo Hatsuyoron for nothing :rambo:


Oh wait, K3 immediately, instead of L7, otherwise white makes ko by playing K3 and J4

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:41 pm
by Shaddy
Still wrong. You missed something deeper- Black cannot live unconditionally.

Re: Interesting problem

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:42 pm
by tchan001
Shaddy wrote:Wow, I'm impressed. Here's one from the Igo Hatsuyoron..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X . X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O O O B B O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . O . . . . . X O B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . . . O B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . O B . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black to play.

Actually this problem is not strictly from Igo Hatsuyoron as it is in essense derived from a problem in Xuan Xuan Qi Jing. Please compare with http://senseis.xmp.net/?XuanxuanQijingProblem150

In the newest Chinese version of Igo Hatsuyoron "Research on Weiqi Fa Yang Lun", it is listed in the appendix as problem #13 from the Xuan Xuan Qi Jing with the name 采樵势 (cai qiao shi). If we use the newest version of Igo Hatsuyoron as the reference, then there should also be an additional black stone at K8.
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